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Torso Killings: torso maps - by Abby Normal 4 hours ago.
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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #671  
Old 08-09-2018, 12:52 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Flaps,slips,slits are all vague,words and it's usage could easily be vague ,one could just go round and round, how about a drawing of the torso victim's bodies,then we could compare it to the rippers victims.Only a visual would make it clear.

Doesn't a lot of men like a woman's heart and uteri,at least mentally,and it's not surprising at all that 2 people did.

---
You ARE joking? A lot of men "like" a woman´s heart and uterus (she only has the one)...?
Enough to cut them out?

If they were such popular trinkets, one would expect scores of examples of besotten men carrying them around in their pockets, but strangely this is not so. Instead, the practice has never produced simultaneously working serialists in the same town doing it. In fact, the ones who do it are incredibly rare. We need to respect that fact if we are to understand what we are working with.

A slit and a flap are very different matters, by the way. And you could not compare the flaps inbetween victims since it is not known how they were shaped. They were large and it seems they covered very substantial parts of the victims respective bodies until they were cut away, but apart from that, there is no real telling what they looked like.

Last edited by Fisherman : 08-09-2018 at 12:58 PM.
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  #672  
Old 08-09-2018, 01:03 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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What I have had in mind the last year or two. It is not a ritual with ceremonies, trumpets, secret signs and such, but the behaviour of the killer borders on the ritualistic. That´s all I am ready to say, so nothing´s changed in that department.
If I guess it will you admit?
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  #673  
Old 08-09-2018, 01:25 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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If I guess it will you admit?
Most likely no.
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  #674  
Old 08-09-2018, 02:09 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
You ARE joking? A lot of men "like" a woman´s heart and uterus (she only has the one)...?
Enough to cut them out?

If they were such popular trinkets, one would expect scores of examples of besotten men carrying them around in their pockets, but strangely this is not so. Instead, the practice has never produced simultaneously working serialists in the same town doing it. In fact, the ones who do it are incredibly rare. We need to respect that fact if we are to understand what we are working with.

A slit and a flap are very different matters, by the way. And you could not compare the flaps inbetween victims since it is not known how they were shaped. They were large and it seems they covered very substantial parts of the victims respective bodies until they were cut away, but apart from that, there is no real telling what they looked like.
I''m saying it's not surprising they would go after it in their "murder spree", arguably,agree?
As far as the rarity, the more important fact to me is there are too many kinds of people and they are unpredictable, that you won't know what 2 of those/them will do.It happened in East End/West End, there it is.And we are not sure yet if in the torso case they were taken only for the purpose of disposal.

In the Pinchin case what's the significance of John Arnold,why would somebody know in advance where a torso would be deposited? Why was
he not suspected? Does this not point to people were tasked to get rid of a body/torso and word spread out, so it was not a serial killing?

We need drawings otherwise it's unclear.

--
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Last edited by Varqm : 08-09-2018 at 02:17 PM.
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  #675  
Old 08-09-2018, 03:40 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Most likely no.
no fair!!!
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but a dream within a dream?"

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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #676  
Old 08-09-2018, 09:48 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
I''m saying it's not surprising they would go after it in their "murder spree", arguably,agree?
As far as the rarity, the more important fact to me is there are too many kinds of people and they are unpredictable, that you won't know what 2 of those/them will do.It happened in East End/West End, there it is.And we are not sure yet if in the torso case they were taken only for the purpose of disposal.

In the Pinchin case what's the significance of John Arnold,why would somebody know in advance where a torso would be deposited? Why was
he not suspected? Does this not point to people were tasked to get rid of a body/torso and word spread out, so it was not a serial killing?

We need drawings otherwise it's unclear.

--
It is and remains surprising that anybody would cut out hearts and uteri from murder victims, I´m afraid. It is a very rare thing and when very rare things occur, then the surprise factor is always there. That is how rarity and surprise are connected: When common things happen, nobody is surprised, when extremely uncommon things do, people are very surprised.

The idea that men are fond of the hearts and uteri of the women they live with is a bit bizarre from the outset: I cannot remember ever having had fond visions of my wifes uterus. I am happy about it, since it has helped my three kids to life, but that happiness does not entail a wish to cut it out.

When you say that it happened in the West End and in the East End, you are dabbling with the facts. We do not know where the extractions of the organs took place in the torso cases. So we don´t know that it happened in the West End, we only know it did in the East End. And the deeds are so rare that if they had happened, uterus removal, heart removal and abdominal wall removal included, in the same time period in Chelmsford, Portsmouth, Swindon and Hastings, our best bet would still be that there was one killer only.

John Arnolds significance is unknown to us, and cannot be established. We can speculate all day, but we cannot ground it in facts.

The same goes for the drawings you ask for. Draw away, you have as good - or bad - a chance to get it right as anybody else. There are too few factors known about the shapes and sizes of the flaps to make it a useful exercise, I´m afraid.
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  #677  
Old 08-09-2018, 09:49 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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no fair!!!
But perhaps understandable?
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  #678  
Old 08-10-2018, 02:24 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
I''m saying it's not surprising they would go after it in their "murder spree", arguably,agree?
As far as the rarity, the more important fact to me is there are too many kinds of people and they are unpredictable, that you won't know what 2 of those/them will do.It happened in East End/West End, there it is.And we are not sure yet if in the torso case they were taken only for the purpose of disposal.

In the Pinchin case what's the significance of John Arnold,why would somebody know in advance where a torso would be deposited? Why was
he not suspected? Does this not point to people were tasked to get rid of a body/torso and word spread out, so it was not a serial killing?

We need drawings otherwise it's unclear.

--
I think you raise some interesting points Varqm. I know others disagree/will disagree as it suits them.

Cheers John
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  #679  
Old 08-10-2018, 03:20 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman
And you could not compare the flaps inbetween victims since it is not known how they were shaped.
We do know that, in Jackson's case, they were described as slips/strips, and a strip invariably denotes a piece of something which is longer than it is wide.
Quote:
They were large and it seems they covered very substantial parts of the victims respective bodies
A pair of strips cut from the level of the navel to the pubis does not constitute a "very substantial part" of the body. Severe, yes, but nowhere near in the same league as Mary Kelly's wound, and arguably not as extensive as Chapman's either. We don't have much detail about the latter, but her wound was evidently large enough to allow her intestines to be quickly lifted out of her body and laid over her shoulder.
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  #680  
Old 08-10-2018, 04:09 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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But perhaps understandable?
Only if your writing a book.

And ive got your title- Lech the TorsoRipper
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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