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  #4381  
Old 01-16-2018, 09:52 PM
moste moste is offline
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Additionally, a professional killer would not have entered the couple's car and risk leaving fibres, fingerprints or other forensic evidence behind. Neither would a professional killer shot someone inside the car and drive off in the car, thus risking being caught in a car with blood and brains all over the passenger seat.

Quite right, But could it not be that the killer shot Gregsten through the window of the car , and left the scene with a third person left to take care of the following mayhem. This would be in keeping with Superintendend Mathews belief that more than 2 people possibly 3 people were involved in all of this.
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  #4382  
Old 01-16-2018, 10:00 PM
moste moste is offline
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Limehouse. I agree with your last two paragraphs whole heartedly.interested to hear more in future posts . I know incidentally my views negate ms. Stories statements , sorry, I just don’t believe a lot of what she had to say.
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  #4383  
Old 01-16-2018, 11:19 PM
Limehouse Limehouse is offline
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Additionally, a professional killer would not have entered the couple's car and risk leaving fibres, fingerprints or other forensic evidence behind. Neither would a professional killer shot someone inside the car and drive off in the car, thus risking being caught in a car with blood and brains all over the passenger seat.

Quite right, But could it not be that the killer shot Gregsten through the window of the car , and left the scene with a third person left to take care of the following mayhem. This would be in keeping with Superintendend Mathews belief that more than 2 people possibly 3 people were involved in all of this.
I think this is very unlikely. A professional killer would have ordered the couple out of the car, carried out the killing and left the scene swiftly. They certainly would not have taken the couple on a pointless meander through the night streets or raped one of the victims.

Having said that, I don't think a former house-burglar, out to score his first practice 'stick-up' would have taken the couple on that very risky jaunt either. Surely they would also have sought a swift exit? Is it possible that the attacker needed the car as a get-away vehicle with a view to holding up a remote garage, where a nice cash return on a few minutes work would most likely be the result? Again, in that case, I would have expected the 'robber' to have ordered the couple out of the car and drive off with it - except it seems that our man was not a very good driver?
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  #4384  
Old 01-17-2018, 12:35 PM
cobalt cobalt is offline
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Hi Moste,

I see that Spitfire is having some sport with your rubber suit theory again, whilst Limehouse has made a highly logical criticism of your ‘amateur’ hitman scenario. I have to agree with them on both points but hope you keep thinking outwith the conventional parameters on the case, for neither the prosecution nor the defence has provided a satisfactory resolution to the A6 Case despite having had 50 years to do so.

You have always been willing to question the evidence of Valerie Storie which very few have been, unless it is in regard to her ID evidence. I have sometimes wondered if her account contained some elements of double bluff. The initial version was that she and Gregsten were in the corn field as part of preparing for a car rally. This was unquestioningly accepted by my parents at the time as I recall and probably most of the British public too, even if the police, and the couple’s family and work colleagues knew better. Only after the trial and execution did the romantic relationship between the couple become public knowledge. Then, with many a nod and wink, the British public worked out why Miss Storie and Gregsten were really sitting in a car in a corn field.

And there the matter is normally laid to rest. Some of the more lurid commentators have even suggested that the couple were caught in the act by their attacker, which triggered his erratic behaviour that followed.

But what if the story of a sexual assignment was actually a ‘blind?’ I understand that the couple had actually lived together briefly in the past so I am not sure if they needed to rely on the interior of a motor car for their intimate encounters. Was there not a flat in existence which they were due to move into together in the near future? Is it possible that they drove to the corn field as part of an arranged meeting, having driven to a different spot shortly before and discovered their ‘contact’ was not there?

Valerie Storie was reported as saying to census taker John Kerr: ‘We picked up a man around Slough,’ although we do not know if that was written down by him since his piece of paper was mislaid apparently. In her desperate state it would be foolish for us to lay too much importance upon Valerie Storie’s choice of words, but they were among the very first words she ever uttered about what happened and at a time, perhaps, when she was not sure if she would survive. So they mattered a great deal to her. I cannot imagine a couple would have picked up a lone, male hitch-hiker in the late evening so if the words are to be taken at face value this suggests they made contact with ‘a man’ who was unknown to Valerie Storie.

The rest of the events may have unfolded much as she described.
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  #4385  
Old 01-17-2018, 01:18 PM
cobalt cobalt is offline
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In relation to Matthews suggestion that two or three people were involved, it is hard to see how the gunman could have arrived at the cornfield under his own steam. Clearly, he did not arrive alone by car, since in the aftermath of the crime no abandoned vehicle was identified in the surrounding area. A taxi might just be possible but the police must surely have explored that avenue and drawn a blank. Which -unless he was local- leaves us with him walking from the train station.

I googled the map of Taplow Railway Station to Marsh Lane/Dorney Reach and the route seems to be around 2 miles from what I can gather. I doubt that the roads and the footpaths on the country lane have altered much over the years. A few things struck me about this route. First of all, Hanratty was a city boy and a two mile country walk might have seemed a bit much, psychologically, for a car thief. Secondly, even in the late evening some cars would have passed a man walking for two miles and surely, subsequently, have reported seeing him. Yet no one did. No one in Taplow wanted to ‘get in on the act’ like a cast of extras were accused of doing in Merseyside. Finally, Valerie Storie’s description of the gunman is quite specific abut his wearing a suit and having polished shoes; this does not fit with someone who has walked a couple of miles along a country road, carrying a revolver and perhaps as many as five boxes of ammunition.

It may be the gunman arrived some hours before the attack but then the problems become even greater. A stranger wearing a suit and carrying a bag in a quiet country area would have drawn undue attention in broad daylight and presumably have needed some food and watering in the course of his stay.

For me, the only logical conclusion is that the gunman was driven to, or close to, the cornfield by another party. That driver must have known that his passenger was carrying a weapon and was engaged in illegal activity of some sort, so understandably was tight-lipped about his involvement after the terrible events.
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  #4386  
Old 01-17-2018, 01:50 PM
cobalt cobalt is offline
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I am aware that a stranger to the Taplow area, resembling Alphon, was allegedly seen on the afternoon of 22nd August by two local witnesses. However, we must remember that none of these identifications was tested in court.

This qualification also applies to an identification by Mrs. Lanz, the proprietor of the Old Station Inn, from which Gregsten and Valerie Storie left prior to their ordeal. She claimed that Alphon had visited the premises previously and on the night in question was there in the company of at least one other man. This is a much stronger sighting on two grounds: first of all, the woman had seen him on more than one occasion; secondly, proprietors are generally very good at remembering the faces of those who visit their hostelries. No doubt the QC Swanwick would have accused Mrs. Lanz in court of trying to drum up business for her Inn, just as Mrs. Jones was for her guest house and presumably Mrs. Dinwoodie for her sweet shop in Scotland Road but it never came to that.

We are regularly told that Alphon was just an oddball who, by pure chance, got caught up in the A6 Case and milked it for all it was worth. But if Mrs. Lanz is correct then I doubt if chance has much to do with it at all. For it would mean that Alphon was unwittingly dogging the footsteps of killer James Hanratty at every turn.
Not only did Londoner Alphon happen, just by chance, to be in a rural backwater the very day that Londoner James Hanratty decided to launch the violent phase of criminal career there, but he also stopped off for a drink at the very same hostelry and I believe at the very same time as the victims. The following day, purely by chance, he goes to the same hotel that Hanratty did the day previously and is sent, again like Hanratty, to the overspill Vienna Hotel.
So it can hardly be a surprise when Alphon is arrested on suspicion a few days later, although his arrest has actually nothing to do with the coincidences mentioned so far.

If Alphon was innocent as many here believe, then he was fully entitled to milk these outrageous coincides for all they were worth, for it seems fate was trying very hard indeed to ‘frame’ him as the A6 murderer. Except for others, there are about two coincidences too many here.
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  #4387  
Old 01-17-2018, 04:55 PM
OneRound OneRound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
....

For me, the only logical conclusion is that the gunman was driven to, or close to, the cornfield by another party. That driver must have known that his passenger was carrying a weapon and was engaged in illegal activity of some sort, so understandably was tight-lipped about his involvement after the terrible events.
Some well constructed and interesting posts there, cobalt.

I've commented before that whilst I don't believe Alphon was the A6 murderer and rapist, I don't rule him out of having had some involvement with the events of that night. The coincidences aren't as plentiful or as damning for him as Hanratty but there are still a few that go into the mix.

Your paragraph above particularly caught my attention. There's a lot of merit in it as far as I'm concerned although, with particular reference to your most recent post, things don't completely gel with what we apparently know. Now if only Alphon had been able to drive ....

Best regards,

OneRound
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  #4388  
Old 01-17-2018, 06:57 PM
moste moste is offline
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Some well constructed and interesting posts there, cobalt.

I've commented before that whilst I don't believe Alphon was the A6 murderer and rapist, I don't rule him out of having had some involvement with the events of that night. The coincidences aren't as plentiful or as damning for him as Hanratty but there are still a few that go into the mix.

Your paragraph above particularly caught my attention. There's a lot of merit in it as far as I'm concerned although, with particular reference to your most recent post, things don't completely gel with what we apparently know. Now if only Alphon had been able to drive ....

Best regards,

OneRound
‘Now if only Alphon had been able to drive’ I can’t believe you just said that Dude!
It’s statements like this, and people in the legal fraternity coming up with what can only be described as outlandish utterances such as ‘well It couldn’t have been Alphon , because he didn’t have a driving licence, and wasn’t capable of driving a motor car that make me smile . Come on let’s get real.
I myself ,at 17 yrs. of age set off happily , (if illegally)down the street in my mates car having only watched people drive on a few occasions. Crashed the gears a few times and kangaroo’d when the car seemed to insist on it, but never the less I could have got from A to B if it was imperative to do so.
So let’s have no more ’Alphon couldn’t drive’ (I know it’s a different machine but he knew the clutch control and operation of a motor cycle no problem) feel free to sit him back behind the wheel of a moggy minor if you’ve a mind to.
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  #4389  
Old 01-17-2018, 08:00 PM
moste moste is offline
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Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
In relation to Matthews suggestion that two or three people were involved, it is hard to see how the gunman could have arrived at the cornfield under his own steam. Clearly, he did not arrive alone by car, since in the aftermath of the crime no abandoned vehicle was identified in the surrounding area. A taxi might just be possible but the police must surely have explored that avenue and drawn a blank. Which -unless he was local- leaves us with him walking from the train station.

I googled the map of Taplow Railway Station to Marsh Lane/Dorney Reach and the route seems to be around 2 miles from what I can gather. I doubt that the roads and the footpaths on the country lane have altered much over the years. A few things struck me about this route. First of all, Hanratty was a city boy and a two mile country walk might have seemed a bit much, psychologically, for a car thief. Secondly, even in the late evening some cars would have passed a man walking for two miles and surely, subsequently, have reported seeing him. Yet no one did. No one in Taplow wanted to ‘get in on the act’ like a cast of extras were accused of doing in Merseyside. Finally, Valerie Storie’s description of the gunman is quite specific abut his wearing a suit and having polished shoes; this does not fit with someone who has walked a couple of miles along a country road, carrying a revolver and perhaps as many as five boxes of ammunition.

It may be the gunman arrived some hours before the attack but then the problems become even greater. A stranger wearing a suit and carrying a bag in a quiet country area would have drawn undue attention in broad daylight and presumably have needed some food and watering in the course of his stay.

For me, the only logical conclusion is that the gunman was driven to, or close to, the cornfield by another party. That driver must have known that his passenger was carrying a weapon and was engaged in illegal activity of some sort, so understandably was tight-lipped about his involvement after the terrible events.
I googled the map of Taplow Railway Station to Marsh Lane/Dorney Reach and the route seems to be around 2 miles from what I can gather. I doubt that the roads and the footpaths on the country lane have altered much over the years

Hi Cobalt.

In 1961 the link road between the A4 and the M4 I don’t believe existed . Though there is now an overpass pedestrian bridge , back then the housing estate Ms Storie lived in on Anthony way was only minutes walk from the ‘S’ bend where the young motorcyclist stated ‘he saw a young couple parked on the side of the road, windows steamed up ‘ of what he thought to be a Morris minor car. And didn’t we learn from Ms. Storie that they had in fact stopped somewhere first before being disturbed and moving on to the corn field location. All very intriguing .
I hear what you say about the supposed gunman arriving at that field having traversed the country lanes .... Ok , that definitely is not James Hanratty.
To take the chance on not being noticed dressed like she said he was, it just doesn’t work.
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  #4390  
Old 01-17-2018, 08:34 PM
moste moste is offline
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’Was there not a flat in existence which they were due to move into together in the near future? Is it possible that they drove to the corn field as part of an arranged meeting, having driven to a different spot shortly before and discovered their ‘contact’ was not there? . ‘
Yes quite right ,the virtually penniless Gregsten had recently paid a deposit on a flat in Windsor, to move in on the following weekend 26 th of Aug.
presumably with Ms. Storie . We don’t know whether it was this flat or the flat at Sabine house, where he claimed to be retuning from the family holiday on the south coast, to paint and decorate. I would guess his soon to be home would be his target for a spruce up.

Almost every turn seems to be some kind of puzzlement . Even his neighbour and friend Mr. Catton admitted ‘ Mike was always hard up, he invited us along to the company beano I think because he knew he would supply the bottle.
How the hell was he going to manage to run two homes? Even his wife sold his beloved piano to make ends meet! Was Gregsten about to come into serious money?
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