Was Evans innocent?

[dougie]

thoughts?

[sdreid]

I think that Evans was probably innocent of both. Guess we'll never know for sure. No mystery why QC wants to think he was guilty. In the end, I suppose it's a sh!t happens.

[Limehouse]

I think Evans was innocent of both crimes too. The forensic evidence on Beryl and the location of Geraldine's body appear to point to Christie being guilty of both murders.

[Graham]

I think I'm correct in saying that neither Evans nor Christie was charged with the murder of Beryl Evans. Timothy Evans was charged only with the murder of Geraldine. Only after Evans had been executed were more bodies discovered at 10 Rillington Place, and Christie arrested. Christie confessed to the murder of Beryl during an abortion that went wrong. He never confessed to the murder of Geraldine even though he had nothing to lose by doing so.
I rather feel that the weight of the evidence points to Evans' killing Geraldine, but whether he did this deliberately is a matter of conjecture - he said that the baby kept him awake all night and every night with its screaming, so perhaps her death was accidental. Whatever, Evans should not have hanged, as he was clearly deficient in his ability to grasp facts and reality.

Graham

[dougie]

I think Evans was innocent of both crimes too. The forensic evidence on Beryl and the location of Geraldine's body appear to point to Christie being guilty of both murders.

Hi Limehouse,
What was the total sum of the FORENSIC evidence regarding Beryl?And why would Evans admit (albeit only briefly) to the murder of his daughter?.To protect Christie? I cant see that.As for his inability to grasp the consequences of his actions...then why did he run?...on Christ ies say so? Doesnt sound too convincing to me anyhow.That fact alone would suggest to me that while his I.Q was lower than average he did indeed know,and therefore was responsible for, the consequences of his actions......Two killers in one house,at the same time?while it must be said its perhaps unlikely,nonetheless for that Christie and Evans (if guilty) would have been two distinctly different kinds of killers.One killed for reasons of sexual satisfaction,and the other would have killed in a fit of temper,or possibly frustration. The fact that 10 rillington place housed one sexually twisted killer doesnt negate the possibility that another occupant of same dwelling might kill also.
REGARDS

[Graham]

John Eddowes wrote "The Two Killers Of 10 Rillington Place" suggesting that Christie couldn't keep his hands off the ladies, and that Evans killed his own daughter, either deliberately or accidentally. Eddowes was probably close to the truth.

Graham

[dougie]

maybe

[Limehouse]

Beryl Evans was strangled. At the time of her death, Christie had already strangled and concealed several other women at the house in Rillington Place. This shows that Christie had the ability and inclination to strangle women.

Although Evans had a tendency towards violence, it was generally born out of frustration and immaturity. It is highly unlikely that he possessed the meaured control needed to strangle a woman. If he was to kill Beryl during a row, it is more liley that he would have beaten her with a weapon.

When Evans confessed that his WIFE was dead, he stated he had 'put her body down a drain'. It is suggested that this is what Christie had told Evans he would do with Beryl's body after her unexpected death. In my opinion, Evans believed Christie's story that Beryl had died during an abortion, and after a few days of thinking about the events, he wanted a decent burial for his wife. That is why he went to the police station to admit that she had died after taking something to produce an abortion. At this point I believe Evans had no idea his daughter was dead.

As Evan's state of mind and his ability to 'run anway when he was in trouble', I believe that he did not run away at all but left London simply because his wife had died in suspicious circumstances and he believed his daughter was safe and well living with another couple. He clearly lacked the ability to think things through fully, he was gullible and was able to be manipulated by Christie.

Christie confessed to the murder of Beryl Evans but could not bring himself to admit or confess to having murdered a child. He had nothing to lose in admitting to the murder of another woman, but as a child murderer he would have been dispised far more and during his last few weeks before execution would have suffered at the hands of those charged with looking after him.

I wonder whether Christie was responsible for other murders?

[sdreid]

The Evans bodies were found together in an area where Christie had disposed of other victims and walled up in a fashion sometimes used by Reg. We'll likely never know for sure who killed them.

I'm not a hardcore death penally advocate but good riddance to Christie anyway. He'd turn 110 this year and many would want to let the poor old man out.

We'll probably still be listening to Manson's crap 35 years from now.

[Christine]

Just based on what you can read about this online, it seems unlikely that Evans killed baby Geraldine.

He confessed to killing his wife accidentally in a botched abortion, but apparently thought the baby was alive until the police showed him her clothes. And in the police-elicited confession, he said he put both bodies in the wash house immediately after he killed them, which was impossible as the wash house was full of workmen at the time. Christie's confession has him correctly moving Beryl's body to the wash house at a later time. So who put the baby in the wash house?

And Christie made a big deal of "not remembering" what happened to the baby, not of remembering that she was last seem alive in her father's company.

Christie and Evans might have worked together, Christie motivated by necrophiliac sexual desires and Evans by a desire to get out of a bad marriage and family situation, but at the very least Christie must have been the prime motivator. We know he told Evans what to do; the real question is how much Evans understood what was going on.

[dougie]

[QUOTE=Limehouse;16800]Beryl Evans was strangled. At the time of her death, Christie had already strangled and concealed several other women at the house in Rillington Place. This shows that Christie had the ability and inclination to strangle women.

Although Evans had a tendency towards violence, it was generally born out of frustration and immaturity. It is highly unlikely that he possessed the meaured control needed to strangle a woman. If he was to kill Beryl during a row, it is more liley that he would have beaten her with a weapon(UNQUOTE)

That is quite a big assumption.As for "measured control",what exactly is that?..To strangle a woman (and ive no first hand knowledge of this ) I suggest all that is needed is to put your hands round her throat and squeeze,no real expertise needed.

(QUOTE)
When Evans confessed that his WIFE was dead, he stated he had 'put her body down a drain'. It is suggested that this is what Christie had told Evans he would do with Beryl's body after her unexpected death. In my opinion, Evans believed Christie's story that Beryl had died during an abortion, and after a few days of thinking about the events, he wanted a decent burial for his wife. That is why he went to the police station to admit that she had died after taking something to produce an abortion. At this point I believe Evans had no idea his daughter was dead(UNQUOTE)

So it seems Evans was more interested in a decent burial,and less interested in the fact that she had been killed?



(QUOTE)
As Evan's state of mind and his ability to 'run anway when he was in trouble', I believe that he did not run away at all but left London simply because his wife had died in suspicious circumstances and he believed his daughter was safe and well living with another couple. He clearly lacked the ability to think things through fully, he was gullible and was able to be manipulated by Christie.
(9UNQUOTE)


He didnt run away?Well it bears all the hallmarks of "running away"..and if he didnt regard it as running away,why did he later "give himself up"?


(QUOTE)

Christie confessed to the murder of Beryl Evans but could not bring himself to admit or confess to having murdered a child. He had nothing to lose in admitting to the murder of another woman, but as a child murderer he would have been dispised far more and during his last few weeks before execution would have suffered at the hands of those charged with looking after him(UNQUOTE)


I doubt whether Christie would have suffered at the hands of his gaolers anyhow.......and just how much more can one be despised after reaching a certain level? Christie had allready reached that level with the murder of the women,killing a child wouldnt have raised the level any higher.

regards

[Limehouse]

Christie had already killed two women by strangulation. He put a ligature round their necks and killed them. Beryl died in the same way - from a ligature round her neck - not bare hands. That suggests some degree of premeditation - not something done in the heat of the moment.

Evans went to stay with relatives in Wales. That is not exactly running away as he could easily be found. He eventually admitted Beryl was dead because his family were continuously enquiring after Beryl and the baby. Evans was obviously distressed. He thought Christie had put Beryl down the drain as he said he would. That is where he expected Beryl to be found.

I do not believe Evans killed his daughter. He was devoted to her and believed Christie when he said she was being looked after. Evans had no previous convictions for violence - Christie did. Christie went on to murder several more women by strangulation. Christie is proven to have had the inclination to murder by strangulation.

I will not sway from my belief that Christie was guilty of Beryl and Geraldine's murder.

[dougie]

Christie had already killed two women by strangulation. He put a ligature round their necks and killed them. Beryl died in the same way - from a ligature round her neck - not bare hands. That suggests some degree of premeditation - not something done in the heat of the moment. (unQUOTE)

nOT neccessarilly.....

(quote)
Evans went to stay with relatives in Wales. That is not exactly running away as he could easily be found. He eventually admitted Beryl was dead because his family were continuously enquiring after Beryl and the baby. Evans was obviously distressed. He thought Christie had put Beryl down the drain as he said he would. That is where he expected Beryl to be found.

(UNQUOTE)

Wouldnt you say that Evans visit to his relatives in Wales was, shall we say made at a rather convenient time?Or was it pre-planned?and he thought "well I know geraldine has just died,but I did promise my relatives Id visit them today"......To suggest one event wasnt connected to the other seems odd.Of course its plain that the "visit" was connected to the events.His actions werent those of an innocent man in my opinion.


QUOTE)


I do not believe Evans killed his daughter. He was devoted to her and believed Christie when he said she was being looked after. Evans had no previous convictions for violence - Christie did. Christie went on to murder several more women by strangulation. Christie is proven to have had the inclination to murder by strangulation. (UNQUOTE)

We are told Evans was devoted to his daughter,we dont know that....and even if he was,one would assume that he was ,or had been devoted to his wife also at some time.....and look what happened to her...Christie gassed and strangled his victims to have sex with them when they were dead,he was a necrophiliac...as far as i recall ,i might be wrong,but there was no sign of sexual interference with geraldine .Because Christie strangled women doesnt mean that Evans couldnt have done just that to his wife.


(QUOTE)

I will not sway from my belief that Christie was guilty of Beryl and Geraldine's murder.

(UNQUOTE)
iTS Not a question of swaying or otherwise,Im not suggesting I know the truth....either Christie or Evans might have done the deed,there is still doubt....and at best Evans in my mind would have been an accomplice anyway to a greater or lesser degree.....i.e can we believe a man (Christie) suffering with chronic sciatica would be capable of carting geraldine down stairs and into the outbuilding alone?

[Limehouse]

Geraldine was a baby - of course Christie couold have carted her downstairs. In any case, we do not know where Geraldine died. She could have died in Christie's flat.

You suggest that Evans made the decision 'I know Geraldine just died but I promised my relatives I'd visdit them'... This is clearly nonsense. Evan's knew Beryl had died but he thought Geraldine was in the care of a loving couple. Evan's state's that after Beryl's death, Christie arranged the care of Geraldine and advised him to sell his posssessions and leave town. This is what he apparently did.

Your point about Christie's sciatica is also interesting, given that a day after he is thought to have moved Beryl Evans from the empty flat downstairs to the wash house, he visited his doctor complaining of chroinic back pain. However, his condition did not prevent him from killing and burying or concealing, four more women in the house.

I fully believe the state hung an innocent man when they hung Evans.

[dougie]

Geraldine was a baby - of course Christie couold have carted her downstairs. In any case, we do not know where Geraldine died. She could have died in Christie's flat.(unquote)

substitute beryl for geraldine...a mistake

(quote)
You suggest that Evans made the decision 'I know Geraldine just died but I promised my relatives I'd visdit them'... This is clearly nonsense. Evan's knew Beryl had died but he thought Geraldine was in the care of a loving couple. Evan's state's that after Beryl's death, Christie arranged the care of Geraldine and advised him to sell his posssessions and leave town. This is what he apparently did.(unquote)

Its not nonsense..its what happened .... and they werent the actions of an innocent man in my opinion (or the QCS) and a host of others at the time

(quote)

Your point about Christie's sciatica is also interesting, given that a day after he is thought to have moved Beryl Evans from the empty flat downstairs to the wash house, he visited his doctor complaining of chroinic back pain. However, his condition did not prevent him from killing and burying or concealing, four more women in the house.(unquote)

Christie had a history of back trouble.theres a difference between the distances (and the obstacles)between the place of death(s) and places of concealment.

I fully believe the state hung an innocent man when they hung Evans.

from such stuff,legends are born