Question for Brits about being a witness

[RivkahChaya]

Oh, well, the US military is like that too. All the enlisted stand at attention when an officer comes into the room. The ranking enlisted person is supposed to be on the alert, and call "Attention!" If the officer doesn't have any business, and is just passing through, she'll say "As you were." If you're outdoors, or in a big open bay, the ranking enlisted person exchanges salutes first. If it's some kind of assembly, the officer will probably say "At ease," but not tell people to sit until making remarks, unless it's going to be a long lecture.

This doesn't apply to civilians, but if the purpose of the assembly is specifically to honor an officer for bravery (or an enlisted person, for that matter), or at retirement the civilians would typically stand when the person entered, and then immediately sit. It's the same for the president. In a mixed assembly, everyone would stand, and while the president would probably say "Please be seated," civilians could actually assume it was all right to be seated as soon as the president had either seated himself, or taken his place behind a podium. Military people would have to wait for a command from a superior to sit, or even to assume an "At ease" position. I think that police, firefighters, and other sort of semi-military people would behave like the military at an assembly, but I've never been present at an assembly like that, and the only one I've seen was on TV after 9/11.

It used to be that in the case of civilians, women weren't expected to stand, and men were, then expected to wait until asked to be seated, but now all civilians behave the same way. The change happened officially at some time in the 70s for members of the legislature, and everyone else gradually followed.

[Steve S]

Guess it's all varying degrees of formality..some of yours slightly different to some of ours............

[Ally]

In a large room, does she make a point of asking the room to sit when she sits? Surely everyone in a room of 100 people doesn't need to wait to be specifically asked. Also, if everyone is sitting, and one person wants to address her, does that person stand?

I'm assuming that the same deference is expected of non-citizens, when they are visitors within the borders.

I imagine the basic rule of etiquette applies regarding sitting. Sit when your host sits, rise when they do.

However, if an American were testifying in a British court and they bowed to the crown on their way in, I'd smack them silly. We fought a war not to do that silly bit of obeisance.

[RivkahChaya]

I imagine the basic rule of etiquette applies regarding sitting. Sit when your host sits, rise when they do.

However, if an American were testifying in a British court and they bowed to the crown on their way in, I'd smack them silly. We fought a war not to do that silly bit of obeisance.

You specifically aren't supposed to, and I'm not sure that the Queen (or whatever monarch at the time) wouldn't suspect you of mocking her, rather than simply not knowing the rules. Michelle Obama aside, I wouldn't recommend trying to hug her either, though.

I'm not sure what American women did when the standard greeting was for women to curtsy rather than shake hands. I suppose you could curtsy without bobbing your head. I was actually taught to do that, because my parents knew some pretty old, and old-fashioned people, who thought that was still the way little girls should greet people, even in 1970 (I was born in 1967). I haven't curtsied since my first grade ballet program, I'm pretty sure, though.

FWIW, so one who isn't part of the UK or British commonwealth is supposed to bow to the British monarch, I'm pretty sure. It doesn't matter whether your forebears ever fought a war over the issue or not.

It must get complicated when diplomats from a country where social equals habitually both bow (head-bob, really), like Japan. Even when people come to the US, and they know it isn't the custom here, it can be very hard for them not to do so.

[Wickerman]

However, if an American were testifying in a British court and they bowed to the crown on their way in, I'd smack them silly. We fought a war not to do that silly bit of obeisance.

And people say American's are ignorant,.....go figure!


Hey Wicked One, ever heard of "When in Rome....", its only a matter of paying respect to your host country. It shows good upbringing.
No-one is asking you to tear up your Bill of Rights.


And peace be with you too..

Regards, Jon S.

[Monty]

When the Magistrate/judge/Stipe (wrong order sorry) enters the court room the Usher will say "all rise" and you stand.

You then wait untill they are seated then sit.

This act, and the bowing, is not directly due to the Monarch but the law. Its an act to show you respect the law. The Judge, seal, etc are symbols of the law so you are not showing obesience but respect to your surroundings and an acknowledgement of the law. Its a courtesy thing.

No one is forced to do these things however technically speaking it is an act of contempt and, in theory, a sentence can be imposed on anyone who doesn't. However I have never experience such a thing.

Monty

[RivkahChaya]

When the Magistrate/judge/Stipe (wrong order sorry) enters the court room the Usher will say "all rise" and you stand.

You then wait untill they are seated then sit.

This act, and the bowing, is not directly due to the Monarch but the law. Its an act to show you respect the law. The Judge, seal, etc are symbols of the law so you are not showing obesience but respect to your surroundings and an acknowledgement of the law. Its a courtesy thing.

No one is forced to do these things however technically speaking it is an act of contempt and, in theory, a sentence can be imposed on anyone who doesn't. However I have never experience such a thing.

Monty

Yeah. Everyone stands at a ballgame when the US anthem is sung, and not to do so is a deliberate snub. However, it's normal for everyone to stand, and in no way considered swearing fealty, or something, to the US to do so, so non-citizens, including non-resident tourists, stand as well.

By the same token, you should assume that anyone sitting cannot stand, and not shoot them dirty looks.

There's a rule that anyone in uniform should salute, including Boy and Girl Scouts, but you see it pretty rarely, because since about 1990, US military personnel have been told not to dress in uniform while off-duty, to avoid being a target. Yes, this was well before 9/11, because I was in the National Guard from 1993-2001 (ironically, received my formal discharge papers in the mail on 9/12/2001, although I had actually been discharged in July), and we were being told back in the early 1990s not to make ourselves targets, and wear uniforms only on duty. If we did wear need to wear uniforms off-duty, in transit, or something, we had to wear dress uniforms, not the camouflage, as the latter was considered provocative.

I think in the 1990s, they were more concerned with us genuine soldiers being confused with para-military types (the people who stockpile weapons and canned goods, and hole-up in the woods, waiting for the end-times, who were buying lots of clothing at the military surplus stores). After 2001, they were worried about people being terrorist targets.

This has really wandered afar.

Would the Mods consider a who category of thread comparing British to American, I dunno, "stuff"? slang, actual terms, measurements, American questions about Victorian money, British questions about American TV. I know a lot of it could go under "Pub Talk," like comparing the US Law & Order to the UK version, but sometimes questions about the legal system are directly on point, vis a vis the JTR case, which is why I thought it might be nice to have it separate from Pub Talk.

Also, sometimes an on-point thread meanders a little while Americans and UKers get terminology correct. Someone could post the niceties somewhere else, and then just put a link in the main thread.

I also with I could set my spell-check to "either/or" when it asks me "British or American" because it underlines so many words when I quote an other-side-of-the-pond post, it (the spell-check) annoys me. I'd like to be able to reuse the spellings in the post I'm quoting, not to mention, but I hate seeing the underline pop up.

[Steve S]

I guess I'd stand for any anthem..It's just politeness..Same as dress codes in a church.......

[Ally]

And people say American's are ignorant,.....go figure!


Hey Wicked One, ever heard of "When in Rome....", its only a matter of paying respect to your host country. It shows good upbringing.
No-one is asking you to tear up your Bill of Rights.


And peace be with you too..

Regards, Jon S.

Uh no. 'When in Rome' absolutely does not apply to this situation and to do so would in fact show POOR upbringing. I recommend reading Judith Martin. a renowned etiquette expert. Not only is she informative, she's often quite hilarious. For example her answers to "How does one eat an apple?" was "Bite. Rotate. Bite".

Americans do not bow to foreign monarchs any more than foreigners pledge allegiance to our flag. It is not about "when in Rome", it's about having the basic awareness of the world around you to know what is and is not appropriate to do when visiting a foreign country.

[RivkahChaya]

Uh no. 'When in Rome' absolutely does not apply to this situation and to do so would in fact show POOR upbringing. I recommend reading Judith Martin. a renowned etiquette expert. Not only is she informative, she's often quite hilarious. For example her answers to "How does one eat an apple?" was "Bite. Rotate. Bite".

Americans do not bow to foreign monarchs any more than foreigners pledge allegiance to our flag. It is not about "when in Rome", it's about having the basic awareness of the world around you to know what is and is not appropriate to do when visiting a foreign country.

This is exactly right. If there were members of several different countries' militaries (spell-check says that is wrong, but I'm going with it anyway; "militias" doesn't feel right) in some kind of formation in the US for some kind of ceremony, and the US flag were raised, and the US anthem played, I would expect everyone to stand, but only the US soldiers to salute. If I were in the UK, and somehow ended up at something where the queen was present, I would stand along with everyone else, but if everyone bowed when she went past me, I wouldn't do the same. If there were just a few people, I assume she'd know there was an American there, and in a crowd, I assume she'd be able to figure out there would be some tourists.

[Ally]

Totally going off topic for a minute and I swear I'll report myself for it after but I was just randomly curious Rivka. Were you SEE or ASL interpreter and if ASL were you NAD or RID certified (I presume it was before the merge since you said some years ago).

[RivkahChaya]

Totally going off topic for a minute and I swear I'll report myself for it after but I was just randomly curious Rivka. Were you SEE or ASL interpreter and if ASL were you NAD or RID certified (I presume it was before the merge since you said some years ago).

ASL, and RID. This was before there even was NAD certification, although the NAD was agitating for their own type of certification, complaining that RID didn't take Deaf people's needs into account (they didn't take interpreters' needs into account much better-- they were mostly about keeping VR happy, but nevermind, it was another time). I was one of the first interpreters to sign a pledge that I was use the NAD certification system as soon as it was in place.

I did have some NAD endorsements, for Deaf-blind guide/interpreter, and religious interpreting. I did the DB program at Gallaudet, before I was actually an interpreter, but I got level 1-- not certification-- geez, I've even forgotten the term-- anyway, I got in the system within a certain time period, so it was still valid. I did the religious one through two churches, and I ended up going to the National Episcopal Conference of the Deaf one year, which was totally fascinating. I was in great demand as a church interpreter for a while, and I was squeezing in three services every Sunday, because I'm Jewish, and don't go to church myself. I also went to a National Federation of the Blind conference one year, as a Deaf-blind interpreter. Also, totally fascinating.

I haven't been certified for a long time, though. But I still have lots of Deaf friends, and every so often, I do a little volunteer work. ASL changes fast.

[Bridewell]

Monty is right. The bow is to the Judge/District Judge/Magistrate(s) only insofar as they represent the Crown. The bow is returned in kind, so it's certainly not just a status thing.

As for the question of witnesses standing or sitting:
Witnesses, unless they are unable to do so obviously, stand to take the oath but, if they are going to be giving evidence for more than a couple of minutes or so, are usually given the option of standing or sitting according to their own preference.

[Monty]

Monty is right. The bow is to the Judge/District Judge/Magistrate(s) only insofar as they represent the Crown. The bow is returned in kind, so it's certainly not just a status thing.

As for the question of witnesses standing or sitting:
Witnesses, unless they are unable to do so obviously, stand to take the oath but, if they are going to be giving evidence for more than a couple of minutes or so, are usually given the option of standing or sitting according to their own preference.

I was trained on giving evidence in Court by an Ex Inspector based in Leman Street.

He gave me 3 tips to bide time when stalling for an answer to an awkward question, Im sure youve heard of this Colin.

1) Ask for the question to be repeated.

2) Drop your notebook and fumble around for it.

3) Only to be used as a last resort......faint.

Never got to 3 yet.

Monty