Sutcliffe launches legal challenge against 'die in jail' ruling.

[Robert]

Well, here's the rest of the therapy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBMCxD5Q2O8

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks, and yes Robert-it did!-and George was my favourite Beatle of all by a long way!Funny though---I am still afraid of the dark to this day!

[Zodiac]

Thankyou Zodiac for your words -which are very important to me and much appreciated.



Well I am glad you have said it ----because that is exactly how I felt too---still do feel sometimes when ,on much rarer occasions thankfully now ,I have to deal with it.And I don"t have any guilt about it and have no intention of ever forgiving him for what he did to me as a powerless child.
But with regard to punishment by the state ,let us have clear laws and clear consequences for breaking those laws . As I said ,as far as I am concerned I remain convinced that society can best deal with its law breakers ,through prison, rather than execution .
Thanks too to all our friends here whose supportive words and sympathy is important to us.
Norma

Hi Norma,

Thank you, and before I get too all emotional to type, I just want to second what you say in the above post. Me too, I totally agree. Thanks again.

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[Robert]

Nats and Zodiac

Hope this helps just a little bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBMCxD5Q2O8

[Natalie Severn]

I want to thank you for your bravery in helping to explain to people just how the whole debate over the rights, dignity and humane treatment of the serial murderer, rapist, paedophile etc. can seem both hurtful and offensive, when you are one of those whose world has been violated by them

Thankyou Zodiac for your words -which are very important to me and much appreciated.

What you said about flashbacks and sleep disorders really strikes a chord with me, in my nightmares I am always the same powerless child I was back then. I've certainly "punished" him in my imagination like you say, oh boy, I have done things to him that would make Ghenghis Khan cross over the road to avoid me!!! '

Well I am glad you have said it ----because that is exactly how I felt too---still do feel sometimes when ,on much rarer occasions thankfully now ,I have to deal with it.And I don"t have any guilt about it and have no intention of ever forgiving him for what he did to me as a powerless child.
But with regard to punishment by the state ,let us have clear laws and clear consequences for breaking those laws . As I said ,as far as I am concerned I remain convinced that society can best deal with its law breakers ,through prison, rather than execution .
Thanks too to all our friends here whose supportive words and sympathy is important to us.
Norma

[Zodiac]

Hi Zodiac

In my book, posters only need to worry about causing offence if they've done so by rudeness, bad language etc. If someone is offended because they don't like someone else's opinion, they'll just have to get on with it.

Those like you and Nats who feel able and willing to speak out are to be admired.

Hi Robert,

Thanks for that mate. Speaking out, even on an internet forum and not under your real name, still makes you feel kind of vunerable. So thanks again for your support, it is deeply appreciated.

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[Robert]

Hi Zodiac

In my book, posters only need to worry about causing offence if they've done so by rudeness, bad language etc. If someone is offended because they don't like someone else's opinion, they'll just have to get on with it.

Those like you and Nats who feel able and willing to speak out are to be admired.

[claire]

The people ruled by the state are the only ones who can determine state legitimacy. As for our case, England appears to enjoy it's state, and so the state has legitimacy. We may not like other states and their ways, but we our judging them by our value systems, and we inherited most of those. Dave

I don't think you can conflate enjoyment with legitimacy. Even Utilitarians had to work a bit to associate happiness with legitimacy; it's not that straightforward.

Also, there are plenty of states that, even if you judge them according to their own value systems, are illegitimate and/or corrupt.

As for Iran (your later post), or any number of other countries, whoa, I really think you overestimate the ability for people to protest. If protest means certain death, it carries a far greater disincentive than it does in, for eg. the UK. The 79 coup was a very different affair to the present situation and, in any case, left a deal of casualties of its own (many of our sizeable Persian population here fled Iran at that time). And, as we might observe in Afghanistan and elsewhere, protests and attempts to wrest power don't always lead to 'what the people want,' but 'power to whomever has the most cash and firepower.' Does that make them legitimate states?

No, the fact that someone has power and that the entire populace isn't on the street in protest does not give them legitimacy or, in turn, the right to decide on capital punishment, or any other such measure designed to strip an individual and the wider society, of dignity. I don't know the answers, of course (!), but this is inadequate argument.

[Zodiac]

Hi Claire,
Well personally I am against the death penalty for a number of reasons , which I won"t go into now, suffice is to say I accept, as you do , the punishment by prison sentences for murderers and rapists.
However , as a result of a crime by a stranger that went unpunished when I was four years old ,[despite police combing the area where I lived to try to find him] I was still, after many years, subject to certain anxieties connected with the crime which kept re-surfacing every so often, causing me to have disturbing flashbacks and sleep disorders.
Eventually , after gaining the courage to talk about my fears with a doctor who specialized in working with victims of childhood trauma I was encouraged to "punish"the man myself,--in my imagination that is, which I did, and I then began to recover from the original ordeal in which I had been a small child in the complete power of an evil monster.
I suspect that it may at least in part due to this personal experience that I sometimes find it difficult to be objective about the likes of Sutcliffe, Hindley ,Huntley etc .

But I do agree that with regards to the law of the land, a prison sentence is the civilised response to such atrocities and as such is probably the best response from the point of view of society.

Hi Nats,

First off, I am so sorry to hear about what happened to you when you were a little girl, that is just too awful for words and I want to thank you for your bravery in helping to explain to people just how the whole debate over the rights, dignity and humane treatment of the serial murderer, rapist, paedophile etc. can seem both hurtful and offensive, when you are one of those whose world has been violated by them. I know that nobody deliberately sets out hurt/offend the victims or their loved ones, but is sometimes very difficult to be lectured to from the high moral ground, when every cell in you is crying out to punish the evil bastard, make them suffer as they did their victims. What you said about flashbacks and sleep disorders really strikes a chord with me, in my nightmares I am always the same powerless child I was back then. I've certainly "punished" him in my imagination like you say, oh boy, I have done things to him that would make Ghenghis Khan cross over the road to avoid me!!! I'm sorry if this sounds uncivilised and vengeful, but I've often felt like I actually need to see Sutcliffe die, not to kill him, though I would do that gladly, but just to be there when it happens, to check for a pulse, to make sure that he is really dead, to know that he is never ever going to be able to come back again.

I realise of course that this is never likely to happen and I agree with you Nats that Prison is probably the best punishment that we should expect from society. But I make no appologies to anyone for wanting their living conditions to be harsh/spartan. I'm not talking bread & water and daily floggings, but I do not see what is so civilized about rewarding them for the unspeakable things that they put their victims through and for all the misery and pain inflicted on those left behind, with access to Pool tables, gyms, table tennis, dvds, television etc. That is not civilised, that is like spitting on the victims memory and a kick in teeth to their loved ones, many of who are living in harsh/spartan/difficult circumstances and are not fortunate enough to have access to such of lifes little luxuries.

Sorry about the rant, I'm still not sure that I've managed to get accross what I was trying to say, but rant over anyway.

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

P.S. Thanks again Nats for saying some of the things I've just not been able to put into words properly.

P.P.S. I hope I have not offended anyone with my post, that was not my intention but I appologize if I have done so anyway.

[protohistorian]

No worries Robert. I like learning also! Dave

[Robert]

Thanks Dave. Very interesting, and quite a mixture.

[protohistorian]

Sorry Robert, I did not mean to be short. Here is a link. Dave

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Iran

[Robert]

Hi Dave

I was just asking a factual question. I'm curious, because one does see women on the streets protesting (or did before the crackdown).

[protohistorian]

Robert, If the people in Iran are unhappy they can revolt. They have done this as recently as 1979. I should I add that that revolt was against a leader the United States gave them because it felt it had the right to stick it's nose into someone elses business. Dave

[Robert]

Does anyone know if women can vote in Iran?