Blameless

[Natalie Severn]

I am not religious or particularly "judgmental" but I do like and respect the attitude Christ had towards prostitutes,adulteresses and other conventional scapegoats.I like most particularly his attitude towards Mary Magdalene-a common prostitute who became one of his most trusted workers and is believed by some scholars to have become His wife or lover ."Let those who are without sin cast the first stone" he is reported as saying.I have always appreciated those words of his.
In fact the only time when Christ did crack the whip and get heavy with "sinners" was when he chased those " wronguns" out of the synagogue-he hated the money lenders and other "traders" who brought their little obscenities -sort of " mini stock exchanges" to operate in the sacred ground of synagogue.

[Ally]

The 1980's Dressed to Kill was about a guy who dressed up as a woman to kill a woman. Maybe you are thinking of another movie?

And warning women not to dress up in short skirts and high heels at a time when a serial killer is stalking prostitutes is not saying that the way you dress means you deserve to die, but if you dress like a hooker, you might put yourself in the target pool. It's absolutely no different than police issuing a warning to people who were pumping gas during the DC sniper episodes or police warning that a man is out assaulting middle aged blondes...if you are in the target category, or look like you are in the target category, a warning is APPROPRIATE so that you can take the necessary action to protect yourself.

It's not saying you deserve to be attacked. It's saying act smart. And while you would not want people to think your daughter "deserved" to die, you aren't going to stop people from thinking it if they have a mind to. But we aren't talking about "deserving to die". We are talking about being "blameless" in action.

[Limehouse]

If I had a daughter who was a student, and if that precious daughter were murdered by a man who also killed prostitutes, then yes by all means I would want it shouted from the mountaintops that she was 'blameless.'

Roy

And if my daughter was a prostitute, and she was killed by a man who also killed students, I would not consider that my daughter deserved to die more than the student, and I would not want other people to think that. I would want the man brought to justice and I would want the police to consider the murder of all women as significant and tragic.

Incidently, at the height of the Ripper killings, police were warning ALL women in northern towns to stay off the streets. They were advising women not go go out dressed up (ie short skirts and high heels) and the prevailing sentiment was that many women were 'asking for it'. That kind of attitude is deeply insulting to men as well as women (suggesting men can't control themselves). At the same time, a film called 'Dressed to Kill' was virtually endorsing the view that a woman out for the night on her own, dressed to the nines, was fair game for any bloke who fancied beating, raping and even murdering her.

[Roy Corduroy]

If I had a daughter who was a student, and if that precious daughter were murdered by a man who also killed prostitutes, then yes by all means I would want it shouted from the mountaintops that she was 'blameless.'

Roy

[Ally]

And the majority of people who drive drunk survive the experience and the majority of people who take illegal drugs survive the experience and the majority of people who do loads of really stupid risky things survive the experience. And the majority of women who marry actually survive that experience too. So it's really a useless example.

But when they DON'T survive the experience, people are not inclined to view them as blameless in their deaths.

People blame the heroin addict who overdoses. People blame the drunk who crashes. And people even blame the victim of domestic violence who dies, especially if there was a history of abuse in the past. If your husband beats you, he's an animal. If you stay to get beaten, you are equally to blame.

If you know something is risky and you choose to do it anyway, people are not inclined to exonerate you from blame, no matter WHAT the risky behavior is.

[Cap'n Jack]

'And what does that have to do with anything whatsoever under discussion? '

It means, Ally, that the majority of women who go down dark alleys with men for paid sex do survive that experience.
But many women die in horrible circumstances in their homes, murdered by their lovers or husbands.
I'm assuming that husbands and lovers have sex with their women, just as prostitutes do, so it is not the act itself that offends but rather the payment for the act.
I'd like to see you get blame out of that.
Limehouse is right, it is the social stigma that is attached to the circumstances of a completely innocent individual who is driven to the circumstances beyond their personal control, and that's where authority steps in and the completely innocent individual is often abused or even murdered.

[Limehouse]

Thanks Limehouse
Yes, I think this 'parish' attitude is universal amongst the forces of law and order. I live in an archaic system where my small island is divided into numerous parishes, each with its own police force, and these officers spend their entire life seeking out criminals from other parishes who have committed sins in their parish, refusing to accept that it could be one of their own parishioners under their direct control.
This is what enabled the 'Beast of Jersey' to prey on vulnerable children for so long, as his parish police force were convinced that it could not be one of their own, so searched for a 'beast' outside of the parish. As far as they were concerned Paisnel was just a good old boy from the local parish.
'Not on my patch' is probably the most popular and prolific statement on any police inspector's lips.
I can't agree with Ally's statement
'It is a global mindset that those who die via predictable means from their own actions are viewed as less important deaths than those who die from no contributory action of their own.'
For is a women selling sex any different than a woman who sells adult movies; or even a woman who sells shoes?

I think the Piasnel case is one of the most horrific I have ever encountered. When the story broke, I was about 12 and living in local authority care. The image of that horrible mask and those spikes has haunted me for years. Then, the story just seemed to fall out of public consciousness. For many years I thought I had dreamed it all, then, more recently, when the children's home abuse in the Islands became public, it was all in the news again. Everything on that front seems far too quiet to me. I feel that children in care have been and still are, viewed much like the prostitutes - something dirty, not very nice and probably responsible for their own situation. Perhaps that's why nobody much cares for them.

[Ally]

[QUOTE=Cap'n Jack;81057]

But Ally, the majority of female murder victims are in an intimate relationship with the man who kills them, they are wives and girl friends.

And what does that have to do with anything whatsoever under discussion?

The prostitutes are in the minority.
The suggestion of 'blame' is purely in the mind of the police investigating the case... and yours, of course.

No the suggestion of being blameless in your actions as opposed to choosing a risky lifestyle as a contributory factor in one's own demise is one that exists in the mind of any rational person who actually views women as people, and not as a collection of poor pathetic unfortunates who were just too stupid, weak or womanly to take responsibility for themselves.

You see them as being much more pathetic than I do. You treat their memory with much more contempt than even the police at the time did. They lived their life as they saw fit and by attempting to exonerate them from the responsibility of their choices, you reduce them to dumb animals with no more rational ability than a dog.

They were not blameless.

[Supe]

Hyde,

1) Kate Eddowes partner was JOHN Kelly.
2) Where is the evidence Mary Jane Kelly's father was James Kelly?
3) It is very dubious--at best--that Kate Eddowes told a casual ward superintendent she had come back from hopping to finger Jack.

No runs, no hits, three errors at the least.

Don.

[Cap'n Jack]

But Ally, the majority of female murder victims are in an intimate relationship with the man who kills them, they are wives and girl friends.
The prostitutes are in the minority.
The suggestion of 'blame' is purely in the mind of the police investigating the case... and yours, of course.

[Ally]

For is a women selling sex any different than a woman who sells adult movies; or even a woman who sells shoes?

It has nothing to do with whether the woman is different. The actions are different. A woman making adult films or selling shoes does not by her trade go off with complete strangers into darkened alleys or skip off completely alone into dim corners with random, strange men they don't know.

It's not the difference in the woman, it's the difference in the action. Sex with strangers in alleys is risky. Selling shoes, unless you are suddenly impaled by a 4 inch spiked heel is not. And people whose actions are contributory to their demise, are viewed as less of a loss than those who were "blameless".

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks Limehouse
Yes, I think this 'parish' attitude is universal amongst the forces of law and order. I live in an archaic system where my small island is divided into numerous parishes, each with its own police force, and these officers spend their entire life seeking out criminals from other parishes who have committed sins in their parish, refusing to accept that it could be one of their own parishioners under their direct control.
This is what enabled the 'Beast of Jersey' to prey on vulnerable children for so long, as his parish police force were convinced that it could not be one of their own, so searched for a 'beast' outside of the parish. As far as they were concerned Paisnel was just a good old boy from the local parish.
'Not on my patch' is probably the most popular and prolific statement on any police inspector's lips.
I can't agree with Ally's statement
'It is a global mindset that those who die via predictable means from their own actions are viewed as less important deaths than those who die from no contributory action of their own.'
For is a women selling sex any different than a woman who sells adult movies; or even a woman who sells shoes?

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

OK. So who was Hutchinson going to blackmail?

JTR.
Eddowes comes back from hop picking in Kent.
She expresses the opinion that she knows who JTR is.
Soon after she is dead.
Her partner is James Kelly.
MAK follows suit several weeks after.
Her father?James Kelly.
Hutch was watching MAK rather closely.Ask yourself-why?
With Eddowes and MAK dead-Hutch may have been the last blackmailer.
Did he step up in life thereafter-ie 1911 Census?
PS.Juwes is a Frisian word.Dutch Jews constituted the majority in Goulston Street and thereabouts.
PPS.I doubt James Kelly was JTR.Don't ask me why-just a gut feeling.

[Ally]

Limehouse,

As I said in my post, I hardy think this is indicative of anything other than the mindset that ANYONE who contributes to their own demise by engaging in risky behavior is to be viewed with equal disdain. It is not limited to Victorian times, and it is not limited to women prostitutes.

It is a global mindset that those who die via predictable means from their own actions are viewed as less important deaths than those who die from no contributory action of their own.

[DarkPassenger]

Thing is he probably was a respectable gentlemen, with a perculiar sexual habit.