Blameless

[Robert]

Nats, I don't think tinkering with the language is going to make any difference. Certain words have negative connotations, and if you change the word a new one will take its place.It's true that "prostitute" doesn't have quite the negative associations of "whore" or "slag" but I suspect that's because it has three syllables and takes longer to say. Hence it's less popular.

Ally, yes, the ends are seen as more important when it's a question of saving a life or defending a country, etc. In the case of Scott, his aim had no particular utilitarian value, yet he's lauded (rightly) as a hero, because he was trying to do something hard. I'm not sure I'm explaining myself too well, but I'm trying to say that the dislike of prostitutes does make a difference to how some people see their deaths. E.g. a prostitute goes out when a serial killer is on the loose : no one says "Blimey, she's brave. She's got spirit." Now imagine there are muggers targeting old people. Some old couple are in the habit of going out ballroom dancing, even though the venue is in a very dodgy area. Well, imagine then that they're mugged and one of them maybe dies as a result. If it was found that the night they went out they'd said "We're not going to let muggers keep us indoors" then they'd be hailed as heroes, even though they may have been unwise to go to their dance.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

So what exactly is the debate going on here?

Welcome to Casebook!Just business as usual.
Sorta like Rugby,you get the ball for a moment and most of the people jump on you for a while.Then we all link arms,do some bum sniffing,kick each other in the shins..........never did understand rugby................
Aussie Rules!

[Natalie Severn]

Robert,
The term "slag" is a sort of "abstraction" - it serves to "dehumanise" a woman and soon murdering her is an ok act because you arent really murdering a human being.Its like Hitler "dehumanising" Jewish people [-and gypsies and others] by creating a mind set that allowed six million to be " exterminated" or murdered by state decree.These people somehow ceased to be perceived as people.
Best Wishes
Norma

[Tom_Wescott]

The difference between a cop and a hooker is this - both know they're in high risk professions and taking a risk. But when a cop is killed, he is revered for his death, whereas a prostitute is blamed for turning a normal man into a murderer!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ally]

Hi Robert,

The same thing also applies to firefighters or police officers or soldiers who die in the line. Or a man or woman who jumps into a raging river to save someone else and dies. Yes, they engaged in risky behavior that had predictable outcomes but considering that their purpose is for a greater good they are absolved of responsibility and considered blameless.

But in the narrow scope, if the risky behavior is only to serve ones own needs then they bear the responsibility of their actions.

[Robert]

Nats, apparently it's a very abstruse textual and theological question so I'll bow out of that one.

My personal view is that it doesn't matter how many Jesuses die on how many crosses - if you've done something wrong then you've done something wrong and nothing can wash away your guilt, though you can sometimes even the score, e.g. someone takes a life then gives up his own to save someone else's.

I agree with Ally that a woman would be crazy to go out late at night in a miniskirt with a rapist around. She should be able to do that in safety of course but given that she can't, she'd be wiser to cover up.

It's true that people who contribute to their own deaths get less sympathy but it's not always so, e.g. Captain Scott, who did something extremely risky, is lauded as a national hero. That's probably because the hardships involved in reaching the pole and the kudos of being the first to do so are seen as ennobling the end towards which he was striving. Prostitutes are generally disliked and I guess that isn't about to change. I remember at the time of Sutcliffe, a police officer was discussing the tape or a letter or some such and said something like "it's probably genuine because he says 'the next one I do will be a real old slag.' And sure enough, the next victim was - " then he suddenly had a think - "an elderly prostitute."

[Ally]

'Ted Bundy worked at a suicide hotline'

I know it's late, Ally, but fhat the wuck has suicide to do with murder?

Ted Bundy volunteered for charity. Does that make him a swell guy and immune to blame for his actions? Your hooker cooked a good breakfast. Does that make her a swell girl and immune from blame for all her actions?

You put up nice little vignettes in an attempt to "humanize" your friend, as if it were relevant or even needed.

It doesn't matter within the scope of anything if a heroin addict volunteers for charity or a drunk has never missed a PTA meeting and knows how to make buttery pancakes that melt in your mouth. Or if a prostitute cooks a mean breakfast or "never wears a short skirt". If they die as a result of risky behavior on their part, then they are not absolved of all blame in their own deaths.

[Natalie Severn]

Um - was the woman taken in adultery a prostitute? She was taken in adultery - I'm not sure that money changed hands.

Robert,see Mary Magdalene , St Luke,chapter 7.
Btw,Dickens set up a "Magdalen" "Urania Cottage" in Shepherds Bush with Miss Burdett Coutts which was a refuge for those womem wishing to relinquish "their unhappy trade".

[mostfoul]

So what exactly is the debate going on here?

[Cap'n Jack]

'Ted Bundy worked at a suicide hotline'

I know it's late, Ally, but fhat the wuck has suicide to do with murder?

[Ally]

No Ally is using definitions because words actually mean something and attempting to claim something that people aren't saying or lame attempts to shuck responsibility in with worth are the tactics of pathetic shysters and liars...oh wait, that's right.

My statements are completely supportable by fact and precedent. If you want to live in a dream world where everyone skips about happy as a lark and no one has any responsibility for their own actions and no one judges others for their actions, that's fine.

Delusional people are amusing to mock.

But as for your charming prostitute story, Ted Bundy worked at a suicide hotline. So let's all hold his hand and tell him what a swell guy he was. Who gives a rat's ass if your hooker could cook. It's irrelevant to the argument.

[Robert]

Um - was the woman taken in adultery a prostitute? She was taken in adultery - I'm not sure that money changed hands.

[Cap'n Jack]

Cracking good post, Limehouse.
I lived with a working prostitute for three years of my life, she never wore short skirts, she never let me down, she was well read and could beat anyone at trivial pursuit, she loved the honesty of Christ, like Natalie, but she hated her Bible, she cooked a mean breakfast and she could find love without sex. I would have been devastated if anyone had killed her for being a working prostitute and then told me that she was to blame for her own murder.
Ally is retreating to definitions here because she knows she is on shaky ground, but I'd remind her we talk of conception here.

[Natalie Severn]

My understanding of the gospels is that prostitutes ,drunks and the poor ,destitute and needy generally ,were far dearer to Jesus than any other sector of society.He said so again and again."Its harder for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven than a camel to get through the eye of a needle".I know he spoke endlessly about redemption----but in Christ"s teachings ,prostitutes appear to be nearer a "state of grace" than ever your rich man is for example.

[Ally]

There are two concepts here that people think are interchangeable and they are not.

One is "deserved" and the other is "blame". Deserved relates to worth. To be worthy of or to not be worthy of.

Blame deals with responsibility. Blameless means having no responsibility for an event.

No one is saying that being a prostitute is a state that is worthy of death. But there is a difference between being seen as worthy of death and having some responsibility for the actions that led up to your death.

Worth and Responsibility are not the same thing. People on this board seem to think that if you don't absolve all responsibility from the victims you are making a judgment on their worth. But the two are completely separate concepts. I have absolutely no moral judgment regarding prostitution. I could care less about its perceived "wrongness" or its morality. If two consenting adults want to have sex, what do I care? I am more offended by the fact that some of the victims were thieves than I am that they were hookers.So I am hardly going to say they deserved death because they were prostitutes. But that doesn't mean I think they were blameless either.

Jesus was all about responsibility as well. Accepting the wrong in your actions and repenting and atoning for them and also accepting the judgment that comes with them.