Blameless

[Natalie Severn]

Um - was the woman taken in adultery a prostitute? She was taken in adultery - I'm not sure that money changed hands.

Robert,see Mary Magdalene , St Luke,chapter 7.
Btw,Dickens set up a "Magdalen" "Urania Cottage" in Shepherds Bush with Miss Burdett Coutts which was a refuge for those womem wishing to relinquish "their unhappy trade".

[Ally]

'Ted Bundy worked at a suicide hotline'

I know it's late, Ally, but fhat the wuck has suicide to do with murder?

Ted Bundy volunteered for charity. Does that make him a swell guy and immune to blame for his actions? Your hooker cooked a good breakfast. Does that make her a swell girl and immune from blame for all her actions?

You put up nice little vignettes in an attempt to "humanize" your friend, as if it were relevant or even needed.

It doesn't matter within the scope of anything if a heroin addict volunteers for charity or a drunk has never missed a PTA meeting and knows how to make buttery pancakes that melt in your mouth. Or if a prostitute cooks a mean breakfast or "never wears a short skirt". If they die as a result of risky behavior on their part, then they are not absolved of all blame in their own deaths.

[Robert]

Nats, apparently it's a very abstruse textual and theological question so I'll bow out of that one.

My personal view is that it doesn't matter how many Jesuses die on how many crosses - if you've done something wrong then you've done something wrong and nothing can wash away your guilt, though you can sometimes even the score, e.g. someone takes a life then gives up his own to save someone else's.

I agree with Ally that a woman would be crazy to go out late at night in a miniskirt with a rapist around. She should be able to do that in safety of course but given that she can't, she'd be wiser to cover up.

It's true that people who contribute to their own deaths get less sympathy but it's not always so, e.g. Captain Scott, who did something extremely risky, is lauded as a national hero. That's probably because the hardships involved in reaching the pole and the kudos of being the first to do so are seen as ennobling the end towards which he was striving. Prostitutes are generally disliked and I guess that isn't about to change. I remember at the time of Sutcliffe, a police officer was discussing the tape or a letter or some such and said something like "it's probably genuine because he says 'the next one I do will be a real old slag.' And sure enough, the next victim was - " then he suddenly had a think - "an elderly prostitute."

[Ally]

Hi Robert,

The same thing also applies to firefighters or police officers or soldiers who die in the line. Or a man or woman who jumps into a raging river to save someone else and dies. Yes, they engaged in risky behavior that had predictable outcomes but considering that their purpose is for a greater good they are absolved of responsibility and considered blameless.

But in the narrow scope, if the risky behavior is only to serve ones own needs then they bear the responsibility of their actions.

[Tom_Wescott]

The difference between a cop and a hooker is this - both know they're in high risk professions and taking a risk. But when a cop is killed, he is revered for his death, whereas a prostitute is blamed for turning a normal man into a murderer!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Robert,
The term "slag" is a sort of "abstraction" - it serves to "dehumanise" a woman and soon murdering her is an ok act because you arent really murdering a human being.Its like Hitler "dehumanising" Jewish people [-and gypsies and others] by creating a mind set that allowed six million to be " exterminated" or murdered by state decree.These people somehow ceased to be perceived as people.
Best Wishes
Norma

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

So what exactly is the debate going on here?

Welcome to Casebook!Just business as usual.
Sorta like Rugby,you get the ball for a moment and most of the people jump on you for a while.Then we all link arms,do some bum sniffing,kick each other in the shins..........never did understand rugby................
Aussie Rules!

[Robert]

Nats, I don't think tinkering with the language is going to make any difference. Certain words have negative connotations, and if you change the word a new one will take its place.It's true that "prostitute" doesn't have quite the negative associations of "whore" or "slag" but I suspect that's because it has three syllables and takes longer to say. Hence it's less popular.

Ally, yes, the ends are seen as more important when it's a question of saving a life or defending a country, etc. In the case of Scott, his aim had no particular utilitarian value, yet he's lauded (rightly) as a hero, because he was trying to do something hard. I'm not sure I'm explaining myself too well, but I'm trying to say that the dislike of prostitutes does make a difference to how some people see their deaths. E.g. a prostitute goes out when a serial killer is on the loose : no one says "Blimey, she's brave. She's got spirit." Now imagine there are muggers targeting old people. Some old couple are in the habit of going out ballroom dancing, even though the venue is in a very dodgy area. Well, imagine then that they're mugged and one of them maybe dies as a result. If it was found that the night they went out they'd said "We're not going to let muggers keep us indoors" then they'd be hailed as heroes, even though they may have been unwise to go to their dance.

[The Good Michael]

Welcome to Casebook!Just business as usual.
Sorta like Rugby,you get the ball for a moment and most of the people jump on you for a while.Then we all link arms,do some bum sniffing,kick each other in the shins..........never did understand rugby................
Aussie Rules!

Aussie rules? Isn't that the soft version of Gaelic football?

Mike

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

Hyde,

1) Kate Eddowes partner was JOHN Kelly.
2) Where is the evidence Mary Jane Kelly's father was James Kelly?
3) It is very dubious--at best--that Kate Eddowes told a casual ward superintendent she had come back from hopping to finger Jack.

No runs, no hits, three errors at the least.

Don.

My apology.I meant John Kelly in all instances.
MAK,ie MJK not Eddowes-confusing ain't it-refer my first post on this forum.

[Ally]

Robert,

I see exactly what you mean and I agree. I think my issue with this has to do with my vision of the word blame. At it's core, blame is strictly about responsibility. Nothing more and nothing less.

I have no problem with responsibility or with blame. In the case of the older couple you mentioned, I have been thinking about it and questioning would I view them the same way as I would view a prostitute in terms of "blameless". In the end, while I realize my opinion is probably the minority, I would not consider them any different than prostitutes.

Everyone makes choices in their lives and decides what they do. If you do something unwise, even for good cause, such as not letting fear prevent you from doing what you want to do, I believe you still have to bear the blame (responsibility) for your actions.

During the DC sniper attacks, I remember filling up at a gas station. I remember this perfectly well because as I was driving into the gas station I had the thought that it was a perfect spot for an attack and would fit pattern. The reason I had this thought was because of a couple of the previous attacks, the killers had driven down I95 picked a good exit and fired at a gas station off the exit. If the killer, (in my musings) were to take I66 West (I66 connects to I 95 in DC) the first good exit they would come to would be the one I was at in manassas and this would be a good gas station at which to take aim. Not 2 days later, a man was killed while pumping gas at that exact gas station.

I knew that gas station was a bad one to be at. I knew it gave the sniper what he required means and opportunity. But no one ever thinks it will happen to them so I went ahead and pumped. If I had died, knowing full well that was a likely target, I would not, in my opinion, have been blameless in my death. I would however not deserve to die. And that's the difference between the two concepts.

I don't have a problem with blame. The world would be a whole lot better if people would accept the proper blame that is rightly theirs instead of trying to fob it off on everyone else and declaring themselves victims of circumstance. Because while the world might view that old couple in your scenario as heroes, I imagine the widow, in retrospect would be looking back and thinking, god that was a damnfool thing to have done.

[Limehouse]

So what exactly is the debate going on here?

To be blunt, but with respect, far more debate than is going on on your site for which you provide a link.

Back to blame. A killer of women, mainly prositutes, is on the loose. He has killed several times and attacks others. The women know their behaviour is risky but they have to pay the rent/buy the next fix/earn enough for a drink. They take a risk because of extreme need or perceived need. Who is to blame? In my book, it's the killer. He/she is responsible for their actions as much as the prostitute. Of course, I agree that people are responsible for their actions but in such cases, the blame must be attributed to the killer who is depriving women of their rights. In my view, the police had no reason to distinguish between the women who were killed by Sutcliffe.

Incidently, Sutcliffe killed victims from a wide area, in Leeds, Manchester and Halifax so many of his victims may have felt 'safe' in a town where he had not yet killed.

[halomanuk]

.

Incidently, Sutcliffe killed victims from a wide area, in Leeds, Manchester and Halifax so many of his victims may have felt 'safe' in a town where he had not yet killed.

Very good observation there Limehouse.

It is the usual case with these women,and many victims who put themselves in dangerous situations, that they always,and understandably in some ways,think that 'that will never happen to me'.

Seeing things on TV or in newspapers always adds a fantasy element to it compared to,God forbid,something happening in the cold light of day.

[Natalie Severn]

I totally agree with Limehouse.The killer is the one who is to blame-and the word and meaning of blame -as understood by the majority of people and no matter how Ally dresses it up -has the prejorative associations of a "guilty offence" being committed-which in the case of the murder of a prostitute ,has been committed by the murderer-who in English law is "the offender" in question.
Like Limehouse and Ally ,I agree that people have "to take responsibility" for unwise or risky "choices" in life,but then as now,as Limehouse is pointing out it can sometimes be a matter of "Hobson"s Choice" rather than having the luxury of a wide range of options to choose from.With so many people being thrown out of work currently , even the option of having any " employment" at all to "choose" from could be getting limited for vast numbers of people.

[DVV]

Fully agreed, of course.
And what Sutcliffe said: "I was just cleaning the streets", makes him even more despicable - if possible.
Cheers to Costello, who once slashed his face in jail.

Amitiés all,
David