Regional Murder Mysteries

[sdreid]

Yes, polygraphs don't have much use when the person has no conscience.

They are as much a head game as anything.

[Rosella]

I certainly feel that if you are mentally ill and truly believe what you are saying polygraph tests are of no use. For instance, I think that if Anna Anderson had been given one in regard to her claim to be the Grand Duchess Anastasia, she would have passed with flying colours.

[sdreid]

Yes, knowing that you are lying helps the polygraph work a little better in my opinion.

[sdreid]

I think inveterate liars can pass polygraphs pretty well too because lies and the truth are all the same to them.

[sdreid]

I wonder if inveterate sociopathic liars aren't the norm anymore. They certainly are in politics.

[Steadmund Brand]

I wonder if inveterate sociopathic liars aren't the norm anymore. They certainly are in politics.

See, I think politicians are more narcissistic premeditated liars…sure some are sociopaths as well but I don’t think true sociopaths are as premeditating … just my opinion

Steadmund Brand

[sdreid]

See, I think politicians are more narcissistic premeditated liars…sure some are sociopaths as well but I don’t think true sociopaths are as premeditating … just my opinion

Steadmund Brand

That may be true and I'm not sure which is worse.

[sdreid]

I suppose premeditated is worse since it implies a choice rather than a trait.

[Mayerling]

See, I think politicians are more narcissistic premeditated liars…sure some are sociopaths as well but I don’t think true sociopaths are as premeditating … just my opinion

Steadmund Brand

I only can think of two politicians who were murderers but I'm not sure if they can both be sociopaths and total liars.

The first was General Daniel Sickels, who as a New York State Congressman shot and killed Philip Barton Keys, the District Attorney of Washington, D.C., in 1859, and was tried for it. But Keys had been having an affair with Sickels' first wife, and the General would win acquittal for the murder in a noted trial which tested the "unwritten law" about killing adulterers. Although there were controversies throughout the career of Sickels (as a General, a businessman, and a diplomat - our Minister to Spain in the early 1870s) he rarely demonstrated any outlandish lying behavior nor did he go about planning to kill people in secret (in fact, he shot Keys out in the open in Washington's Jackson Square Park near the White House).

The other is a darker (far darker) figure - the Australian politician, Thomas Ley. Ley probably could be considered a sociopath, and he did die in an asylum prison (Broadmoor) for his role in organizing the murder of a man he thought was playing around with his mistress. Ley had been (of all things) Minister of Justice in one of the states of Australia, and had been noted for his strict, "by the rules" decisions, especially about executions. But in his career as a businessman and up-and-coming politician, several opponents of his died under murky circumstances (disappearing off ferry boats; being found dead near cliffs). He may have killed four men in Australia. He was also involved in shady business deals in Australia and Britain (where he moved to) as well as black marketeering in Britain in World War II. Lying was second nature to the man known as "Lemonade" Ley for his support of prohibition in Australia in the 1920s (tempered somewhat, it was later learned, by his getting money from the brewery interests!).

Jeff

[sdreid]

I don't think that Sickels was a sociopath but, in my view, he was an extremely odd individual.

[Ginger]

Sickles was certainly one of a kind, but I do think a solid argument can be made that he kept the Union left from being turned that second day at Gettysburg, when he disobeyed orders and moved III Corps forward to an advanced position on Sherfy's ridge.

[Rosella]

As an Australian I know more about Ley, who was extraordinarily corrupt and a great liar. He was involved, I believe, in ordering people killed in Australia who had become an inconvenience to him. I don't think he himself sullied his lily-white paws in any of it.

By the time he was arrested for the Chalk Pit murder in England after the war, he was apparently suffering from senile dementia, hence his extreme jealousy about his elderly girl friend!

[Mayerling]

As an Australian I know more about Ley, who was extraordinarily corrupt and a great liar. He was involved, I believe, in ordering people killed in Australia who had become an inconvenience to him. I don't think he himself sullied his lily-white paws in any of it.

By the time he was arrested for the Chalk Pit murder in England after the war, he was apparently suffering from senile dementia, hence his extreme jealousy about his elderly girl friend!

Aside from a volume in the Notable British Trials series on him (why not, he is the only high ranking politician put on trial for murder in modern Britain), the only book on Ley I know of is one called "The Minister of Murder".*

As for Sickles (who is the subject of two biographies I know of) Nat Brand (a writer on American Civil War subjects) wrote a good account on the murder of Philip Barton Keys called "The Congressman Who Got Away With Murder", which I think is a wonderful title.

[*I might add that since 1947 another highly regarded British politician (not an Australian transplant) was on trial for attempted murder: Jeremy Thorpe. He got acquitted, but many people feel he shouldn't have been.]

Jeff

[sdreid]

I don't think that Sickels was a sociopath but, in my view, he was an extremely odd individual.

Sickles apparently forgave his wife, although to my way of thinking, hers was the greater betrayal. He must have thought that Keys was just too irresistible.

[sdreid]

Sickles apparently forgave his wife, although to my way of thinking, hers was the greater betrayal. He must have thought that Key II was just too irresistible.

Teresa only lived until 1867 though so he didn't really have to stick with her that long.