The Christie Case

[contrafib]

Sherlock, any comments on the audio commentary???

[Sherlock]

The audio commentary by Honest John and Contrafib is essential listening for anyone who is new to the case and has seen the film for the first time, as it presents the true facts and points out the historical inaccuracies in both the film and in Ludovic Kennedy 's book. The fatal flaw with the film is that it was conceived basically as a protest against capital punishment rather than as a serious study of the characters of Evans and Christie, and therefore contains a good deal of fiction and speculation, although it does work reasonably well as a crime thriller.

I saw the paperback edition of Honest John's book on sale in my local bookshop today. It is a pity that it was not possible to include the additional information which Honest John has subsequently brought to light, such as the eventual fate of minor but still important characters like Lucy Endecott and Basil Thorley. One also wonders whether the lady with whom Christie had the affair while based at Harrow Road Police Station is still alive, as she would surely be able to shed more light on the character of Christie as a man rather than purely as a murderer.

[Brickbat]

I really would like to learn about the subsequent research by Honest John regarding the eventual fate of Basil Thorley and Lucy Endecott. Thank you.

[Honest John]

I really would like to learn about the subsequent research by Honest John regarding the eventual fate of Basil Thorley and Lucy Endecott. Thank you.

Dear Brickbat,

Its a while since I looked into this, but from memory, Lucy married a chap called Dyson in 1957 in Yorkshire and Thorley moved to Brighton in the early 1950s. He married and later divorced.

By the way, on the Imperial War Museum website is a recording of the reminiscences of former PS Leonard J.F. Trevallion. Interesting to say the least!!

[Honest John]

Dear Brickbat,

Its a while since I looked into this, but from memory, Lucy married a chap called Dyson in 1957 in Yorkshire and Thorley moved to Brighton in the early 1950s. He married and later divorced.

By the way, on the Imperial War Museum website is a recording of the reminiscences of former PS Leonard J.F. Trevallion. Interesting to say the least!!

To add: Lucy was born in Rotherham in 1932 and married there in 1957; still alive as far as I know.

'Basil' Thorley was born William Basil C. Thorley in Lewisham in 1931. Married Miss Lade in 1951 and then to Elliott in 1975 (divorced from 1st wife).

[Sherlock]

From what I have been able to find out from a quick surf on the web Basil's full name is Basil William Clayton Thorley and is a retired company director living in Brighton. I presume that he is still alive at the present time; if so, he must be one of the very few living people to have known both Evans and Christie.

It is possible that he might be able to shed more light on the characters of both of these men, but I somehow suspect that he would not wish to get involved with any fresh examination of the case after all this time, and probably wants a quiet retirement with his family. He does seem to have spoken to John Eddowes when he was writing his book in the 1990s in which he is quoted as saying that he must have been one of the very few people who believed that Evans was indeed responsible for the murders of Beryl and Geraldine.

[Honest John]

From what I have been able to find out from a quick surf on the web Basil's full name is Basil William Clayton Thorley and is a retired company director living in Brighton. I presume that he is still alive at the present time; if so, he must be one of the very few living people to have known both Evans and Christie.

It is possible that he might be able to shed more light on the characters of both of these men, but I somehow suspect that he would not wish to get involved with any fresh examination of the case after all this time, and probably wants a quiet retirement with his family. He does seem to have spoken to John Eddowes when he was writing his book in the 1990s in which he is quoted as saying that he must have been one of the very few people who believed that Evans was indeed responsible for the murders of Beryl and Geraldine.

I think you're right about this and thanks for the additional information.

[RivkahChaya]

The audio commentary by Honest John and Contrafib is essential listening for anyone who is new to the case and has seen the film for the first time, as it presents the true facts and points out the historical inaccuracies in both the film and in Ludovic Kennedy 's book. The fatal flaw with the film is that it was conceived basically as a protest against capital punishment rather than as a serious study of the characters of Evans and Christie, and therefore contains a good deal of fiction and speculation, although it does work reasonably well as a crime thriller.

I hear you. I first saw the film when I was in high school, and, as an American, knew nothing about the case (I was familiar with all the actors, though). I loved it. I saw it again on TV, recently (first time was in an art house, on 16mm), and didn't care for i that much-- and I'm against capital punishment, so I don't mind some propaganda, a la Dead Man Walking, and soforth, but I was looking for a true crime film, and it failed.

I'll probably see it again some day, and like it again, because there really is some fine acting.

Are any of the actors in it on record as opposing capital punishment (or were at the time)?

[RivkahChaya]

From what I have been able to find out from a quick surf on the web Basil's full name is Basil William Clayton Thorley and is a retired company director living in Brighton. I presume that he is still alive at the present time; if so, he must be one of the very few living people to have known both Evans and Christie.

-snip- he is quoted as saying that he must have been one of the very few people who believed that Evans was indeed responsible for the murders of Beryl and Geraldine.

The one thing that puzzles me, is that it seems that, supposing for a moment Evans did kill Beryl, he put the body with Christie's other victims. It seems like this would have presented him with the opportunity to frame Christie for his wife's murder, and he didn't take it. Now, nothing requires him to, not even human nature, but human nature does suggest that it's the most likely thing, if you ask me.

Then, when Evans was arrested, he still doesn't mention any other bodies, and the obvious killer of those women (the guy who lived there long before Evans did).

Does the text of Evans confession exist? if so, what does he state his motive was?

Or am I mistaken about Evans stumbling of Christie's other victims? I thought I read that here, but I could be misremembering. I can't find the post now.

[Brickbat]

Dear Honest John and Sherlock

Thanks for both your informative addendums on Basil Thorley. I have copied the relevant text and printed these on a seperate sheet together with the previous additions by Honest John here on this forum and inserted them inside my copy of Honest John's book.

As pointed out by you Sherlock, if would be a much missed opportunity not to hear from Basil Thorley directly as he clearly is the last witness and direct relation alive
(assuming Lucy Endecott and Timothy Evans's sisters have now deceased).

Another witness, Joan Vincent, might be still alive as well, though by the time she was interviewed for the Brabin Inquiry in 1965 she already then was in a sorry state.
Do you know that a large section from the original 1966 Brabin Report dealing with Joan Vincent's testimony was edited out of the popular 1999 uncovered editions series publication of the report (together with other sections from the original report).

Police Sgt. Trevallian's statement at the Inquiry is included in the original Reort on page 53. He appears to be the only source (or am I mistaken here) of an affirmation by Evans that he strangled Geraldine. Trevallian retired from the Police in 1964.

[Sherlock]

One of Evans' sisters, Mary Westlake, was still alive aged 80 in 2010 when she gave an interview to the BBC website which can still be found online. I do not know if his other sister was still alive at that time, or his step-brother whom I believe was named Penry as was his stepfather.

It is interesting that the paperback edition of the Brabin Report is an edited version; I previously suspected that this was the case. It would be interesting to read the full version; presumably the inquiry did not consider that Joan Vincent's evidence shed much light on the case, which is why it was omitted from the paperback edition. However, it would be interesting to know what else was omitted from this edition. It would be good for the historian if the full version of the report was published at some point. I do not know if it may be available for perusal in any libraries, or may be obtained from HM Stationary Office?

As well as Basil Thorley and Evans's sisters and step-brother, other people who played key roles in the case and who may just possibly be still alive at the present time are Lucy Endecott, Joan Vincent, and maybe even the lady with whom Christie had the affair at Harrow Road Police Station. Whether any of them would want to speak publicly about the case now would be another matter.

Mr Hookway, to whom both Evans and Christie sold their furniture and who seems to have known Christie reasonably well, seems to have disappeared by the time of the Brabin Inquiry as he could not be located at that time, and it is very likely that he is dead by now.

[Cogidubnus]

Impressed

At Christmas I was presented with a Waterstone's voucher by my immediate manager, part of which I've just expended on the Jonathon Oates book...To be fair I'm part way through three or four books at present (this one, Altick, Dimolianis plus a Caroline Graham for light relief) and am thus not as far in as I might generally expect, but already I'm really impressed...For anyone interested "John Christie of Rillington Place" just has to be worth a go...reading it on the bus this morning, lunch hour, and homeward bound tonight has promoted it and I'm afraid the others will have to wait a bit...

All the best

Dave

[RivkahChaya]

Is "voucher" what we over here call "gift certificate"? You don't know what books someone might already have, so you give them say, a $25 gift certificate to a bookstore, and they can get what they want?

They used to be considered not so nice compared to a "real" gift, but now that it's hard to know what 2,000 songs someone already has, or what digital format they prefer, and which out of all available songs ever, they might want, an iTunes card is s good gift. So is a Starbucks card, since you can't wrap up a latte.

Also, I think one of the arguments against them was that you were foisting the shopping chore onto the receiver, but most gift certificates can be used online, except for the restaurant ones.

[Ginger]

The one thing that puzzles me, is that it seems that, supposing for a moment Evans did kill Beryl, he put the body with Christie's other victims.

He didn't, though. The bodies of Mrs. Evans and the baby were hidden beneath, or behind, some lumber in an outbuilding. Christie's first two victims were buried in the garden, his wife beneath the floorboards, and his last three stuffed rather precariously into a closet.

IIRC Evans, after a rather strange false start in which he initially claimed to have hidden the bodies down a manhole after discovering that Christie had murdered them, finally told police where they could be found. IIRC (again), he also confessed to a number of his cellmates.

I tend to think that Evans did at least kill the baby, if not also his wife.

[RivkahChaya]

Did Christie ever admit to killing anyone?

BTW: the argument that it's "unlikely" that two killers would be in one place is wrong. While serial killers may be rare, wife killing is sadly common, and a woman is most likely to be murdered when she is pregnant. Child murder by a parent is sadly common as well. Saying that it's unlikely Evans murdered his wife, just because he lived in a serial killer's house is wrong-headed, because aside from the fact that Evans does not seem to have known he lived in a serial killer's house, Evans, if the jury was correct, was not a serial killer. He was a wife-killer, and possibly also a child-killer (or maybe even what is called a "family annihilator"), and we can't calculate odds just by multiplying the likelihood of a serial killer being in an area by itself.

I suspect that if you look at every neighborhood Ted Bundy ever lived in, you will find a wife murder in each one, during, or close to the time Bundy was there. Bundy's presence has no effect on a different person committing a different kind of murder.

Now, this doesn't mean I now think Evans did it. To be honest, I have no opinion right at this moment. I need to learn more.