R.L.S., H.J., & E.H.: a questions of sources and results

[Abby Normal]

I think you are correct in essence, Chris. However, I can accept that the people can feel some sort of kinship and misidentify a justification for foul deeds in a society where deviations that were earlier suppressed as cultural markers, are suddenly allowed to get manifested.

It kind of touches on how Phillips was unwilling to divulge the details of the Chapman murder at the inquest, partly for reasons of not wanting to spread the disease, if you will.

In that sense, I do think that subjecting society to worse and worse stories about extreme violence, will eventually result in a more violent society. Much was feared when television made itīs entrance, but nothing much happened from the start. It was not until the generations that were brought up with television finally grew up that television-induced violence became part of society.

Great post Fish

I didn't really get into much detail and as I stated previously, I don think it would really be that much of an inspiration as obviously serial killers real inspiration comes from a much darker and deeper space. However, I agree with what you say here, as I think the rise of the serial killer phenomenon might have some correlation to the industrial revolution, the increase of leisure time, newspapers and fantastical stories.

I was just responding to mayerlings question as it always struck me as interesting of the comparison of the Jekyl and Hyde story coming right about the time of the rippers murder.

[ChrisGeorge]

Yes "Jekyll and Hyde" and Sherlock Holmes plus Van Gogh and Gauguin and Robert Louis Stevenson were all at the time of the Ripper murders, and H. H. Holmes was getting ready to "off" people in this Murder Castle, but what does this all mean???? Sorry. Sheer coincidence, that's all. Although nonetheless, of course, people with wild and crazy theories will continue to put forward their crackpot ideas. Frankly, this is one reason why I don't frequent the forums as much as I used to. I have better things to do than to listen to nonsense.

Literature is one thing, the past is another. History must not be allowed to be literature. It must be history.

Regards, Pierre

All very fine, Pierre. And yet numerous people do conflate figures in the contemporary literary, theatrical, and art worlds plus other murderers of the day, or else, as we have seen, witnesses to or observers about the case, or else Royals of the time, or Royal doctors of the day, with what was happening in the East End of London at this date whether you like it or not.

Best regards

Chris

[Pierre]

Yes "Jekyll and Hyde" and Sherlock Holmes plus Van Gogh and Gauguin and Robert Louis Stevenson were all at the time of the Ripper murders, and H. H. Holmes was getting ready to "off" people in this Murder Castle, but what does this all mean???? Sorry. Sheer coincidence, that's all. Although nonetheless, of course, people with wild and crazy theories will continue to put forward their crackpot ideas. Frankly, this is one reason why I don't frequent the forums as much as I used to. I have better things to do than to listen to nonsense.

Literature is one thing, the past is another. History must not be allowed to be literature. It must be history.

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Fisherman;405310]

Much was feared when television made itīs entrance, but nothing much happened from the start. It was not until the generations that were brought up with television finally grew up that television-induced violence became part of society.

Of which Lechmere now is a journalistically constructed part.

Regards, Pierre

[Fisherman]

Yes "Jekyll and Hyde" and Sherlock Holmes plus Van Gogh and Gauguin and Robert Louis Stevenson were all at the time of the Ripper murders, and H. H. Holmes was getting ready to "off" people in this Murder Castle, but what does this all mean???? Sorry. Sheer coincidence, that's all. Although nonetheless, of course, people with wild and crazy theories will continue to put forward their crackpot ideas. Frankly, this is one reason why I don't frequent the forums as much as I used to. I have better things to do than to listen to nonsense.

I think you are correct in essence, Chris. However, I can accept that the people can feel some sort of kinship and misidentify a justification for foul deeds in a society where deviations that were earlier suppressed as cultural markers, are suddenly allowed to get manifested.

It kind of touches on how Phillips was unwilling to divulge the details of the Chapman murder at the inquest, partly for reasons of not wanting to spread the disease, if you will.

In that sense, I do think that subjecting society to worse and worse stories about extreme violence, will eventually result in a more violent society. Much was feared when television made itīs entrance, but nothing much happened from the start. It was not until the generations that were brought up with television finally grew up that television-induced violence became part of society.

[Pierre]

QUOTE=Mayerling;405296

[*By the way, something has been overlooked about the wording of the GSG all this time (including by me, so I can't be too sanguine about mentioning it).
It emphasizes "men", which might be a generalizing word (in this case) for both men and women, but can also be an isolating word for males. Why only men?]

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Judges where men exclusively.

Regards, Pierre

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Mayer
I've always been fascinated with this question. It just blows me away that this story and play was around right before the start of the murders as well as the start of Sherlock Holmes character.

However, very rarely do serial killers allude to specific fictional characters as inspiration, if it at all, so I don't think we will really know.

Yes "Jekyll and Hyde" and Sherlock Holmes plus Van Gogh and Gauguin and Robert Louis Stevenson were all at the time of the Ripper murders, and H. H. Holmes was getting ready to "off" people in this Murder Castle, but what does this all mean???? Sorry. Sheer coincidence, that's all. Although nonetheless, of course, people with wild and crazy theories will continue to put forward their crackpot ideas. Frankly, this is one reason why I don't frequent the forums as much as I used to. I have better things to do than to listen to nonsense.

[Fisherman]

Says the man who 'studies the cultural production of literature' but who has demonstrated that he literally does not know what 'metaphor' means.

All of which makes a nice metaphore for "pretentious". ("Prrretentious? MOI?" - Miss Piggy, The Muppet Show)

[Mayerling]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_(Spinoza)

The type of literature Jack read.

Seemed fond of St Luke's Gospel.

Also possibly Thomas Carlyle

Whither St. Luke's Gospel and Carlyle, and what specifically by Carlyle?

Hmmm. If there is a connection between Baruch Spinoza's Ethics and Jack, perhaps it could be stretched (and I think of it as a stretch) between these and the GSG.

Think of the statement (if I get it wrong you'll correct), "The Juwes will not be the men blamed for nothing" (or whatever it actually was). Spinoza was one of the great men of history who happened to be Jewish (like Einstein, or Freud), and his views got him kicked out of the congregation he belonged to in Holland. The rabbis (I refuse to use the anti-Semitic term "Elders of Zion") felt Spinoza's philosophical point of view was heretical regarding Judaism (in 17th Century Europe there was only what is now "Orthodox Judaism", except for a number of nuts who believed a Jew named Sabbatai Zebi or Zevi was the Messiah and converted to Islam when he did (under pain of death) in the 1650s - they formed a cult that lasted for about one hundred years). If you wish here the "Juwes" acted as "Judges" but the point is that their religious leadership did not like Spinoza or his ideas. Now if it connects (weirdly as it might) to the Spinoza business then:

1) the bulk of the world Jews will not be blamed for what they think Spinoza's ideas are worth - nothing.
2) the Jews (in 19th Century Britain and the world) are not to be blamed for what Jack did when influenced by Spinoza.
3) the "Judges" (here the rabbis) should not be blamed for what happened in Whitechapel, or present day ones for what was done to Spinoza.

Probably there are other interpretations, but I let you imagine them.*

Still, the Carlyle suggested connection is interesting. Thomas Carlyle was dead in 1888, but only by seven years (dying in February 1881, if I am correct). He was a man who liked using the cultural phenomenon of his own time as sign posts for the thinking of his age (remember "Morrison's Pill", a real patent medicine that was popular that he used in "Past and Present" in a philosophical version). He also liked murder trials - think of how he created an image for "respectability" from a line from a witness about the unfortunate victim William Weare in the trial of John Thurtell in 1823. The witness said, "He was respectable. He kept a gig!" And Mr. Carlyle seized on this to create the term "gigmanity". His viewpoint on history (shown in his study of Frederick the Great) is of the "great man" variety, which would have gelled nicely in the age's zeitgeist alongside the views (when twisted) of the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzche. Jack could have picked up handsomely on those.

[*By the way, something has been overlooked about the wording of the GSG all this time (including by me, so I can't be too sanguine about mentioning it).
It emphasizes "men", which might be a generalizing word (in this case) for both men and women, but can also be an isolating word for males. Why only men?]

Jeff

[Henry Flower]

Hi Jeff,

Since we are now back to the topic I can just give my simple answers to your questions.

I have a very realistic perspective on the case and I think that Jack the Ripper had no interest in inspiration from literature.

The only interest possible, as I see it, was the interest of gaining something by using references to literature.

Therefore, this use must be visible in some source(s), otherwise it is hopeless.

Regards, Pierre

Says the man who 'studies the cultural production of literature' but who has demonstrated that he literally does not know what 'metaphor' means.

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff,

Since we are now back to the topic I can just give my simple answers to your questions.

I have a very realistic perspective on the case and I think that Jack the Ripper had no interest in inspiration from literature.

The only interest possible, as I see it, was the interest of gaining something by using references to literature.

Therefore, this use must be visible in some source(s), otherwise it is hopeless.

Regards, Pierre

Fair enough Pierre.

Jeff

[DJA]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_(Spinoza)

The type of literature Jack read.

Seemed fond of St Luke's Gospel.

Also possibly Thomas Carlyle

[Pierre]

Did the Whitechapel killer have any awareness of Stevenson's creation(s) from the novella or the play with Mansfield, as I asked regarding Conan Doyle's published first "Sherlock Holmes" story. Certainly it is something to ponder. If we dismiss a well educated and read Ripper from our minds, considering only a lower class working man who has no interest outside of his work and lifestyle, than the issue is not important. But if the Ripper was well read, one wonders if he was building up a private reading list for ideas or inspiration. However, one thing is certain. As of now we have never linked the Ripper to the murder of any benevolent Members of Parliament like Sir Danvers Carew. Possibly our unknown killer was too sharp to go that far with any attempts at imitation.

Hi Jeff,

Since we are now back to the topic I can just give my simple answers to your questions.

I have a very realistic perspective on the case and I think that Jack the Ripper had no interest in inspiration from literature.

The only interest possible, as I see it, was the interest of gaining something by using references to literature.

Therefore, this use must be visible in some source(s), otherwise it is hopeless.

Regards, Pierre

[Abby Normal]

You may be fully correct Abby - there is plenty that we will never know for certain. But you never can tell. One of the classic studies on murder cases, "Murder For Profit" by William Bolitho, has a section on the 1869 "Pantin" murders of Jean-Baptiste Troppman (of the entire Kinck Family) with the goal of appropriating there property for his own use. It turned out that Troppman liked the then popular novel, "The Wandering Jew" of Eugene Sue, which details a conspiracy to wipe out the different heirs to a huge fortune by various strategems. While Sue's novel was an attack on the Jesuits (the villain is a Jesuit priest who is determined to make himself head of the order with the use of the fortune), the basic concept of translating wiping out a bunch of people to get their money was there.

I admit this does not always hold, but I do have a feeling that there is always an interaction between the culture of a period and it's figures. Maybe the germ of the evil ideas were in Jack to begin with, but he may have gotten hints of inspiration here and there from the books or magazines or plays of the day.

Hope you had a good New Years Eve.

Jeff

Same to you Mayer.
Well the zodiac was probably partially inspired by the most dangerous game and hinckly by the taxi driver, but IMHO any "inspiration" would only be marginall, because the fantasy or delusion, to kill goes much deeper.

[Mayerling]

Hi Mayer
I've always been fascinated with this question. It just blows me away that this story and play was around right before the start of the murders as well as the start of Sherlock Holmes character.

However, very rarely do serial killers allude to specific fictional characters as inspiration, if it at all, so I don't think we will really know.

You may be fully correct Abby - there is plenty that we will never know for certain. But you never can tell. One of the classic studies on murder cases, "Murder For Profit" by William Bolitho, has a section on the 1869 "Pantin" murders of Jean-Baptiste Troppman (of the entire Kinck Family) with the goal of appropriating there property for his own use. It turned out that Troppman liked the then popular novel, "The Wandering Jew" of Eugene Sue, which details a conspiracy to wipe out the different heirs to a huge fortune by various strategems. While Sue's novel was an attack on the Jesuits (the villain is a Jesuit priest who is determined to make himself head of the order with the use of the fortune), the basic concept of translating wiping out a bunch of people to get their money was there.

I admit this does not always hold, but I do have a feeling that there is always an interaction between the culture of a period and it's figures. Maybe the germ of the evil ideas were in Jack to begin with, but he may have gotten hints of inspiration here and there from the books or magazines or plays of the day.

Hope you had a good New Years Eve.

Jeff