JUSTICE for the 96 ..Hillsborough

[Spitfire]

The Taylor Interim Report published in the summer 1989 having been commissioned by Mrs Thatcher's Home Secretary shortly after the disaster clearly laid the blame for the disaster at the door of the South Yorkshire Police, who had responsibility for policing Hillsborough on the 15 April 1989. The Interim Report admonished some senior police officers for their lack of candour.

The main cause of the disaster was not the opening of the exit gate to allow fans in, but the failure of the police to order the closing of the tunnel which led to the central pens behind the goal. The crush which built up was as a direct result of this failure.

The two most senior police officers on duty that day were Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield and Superintendent Bernard Murray. A private prosecution was brought against them for manslaughter in 2000. After a 31 day trial, the Leeds jury found Murray not guilty but could not agree on a verdict against Duckenfield. The judge discharged the jury and refused to order a retrial.

Another jury, a Warrington one sitting 16 years later, has come to a different conclusion by a majority of 7-2. The clamour now is for a retrial of the 71 years old Duckenfield. I doubt whether it will happen, but with the legal system these days, one just never can be sure.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Phil,

I don't think we're disagreeing on where the fault lies. In my opinion, extremely incompetent and corrupt.

But, we are disagreeing on whether or not incompetence should be enough to underpin a charge of unlawful killing. The letter of the law doesn't agree with me, I acknowledge that, and I understand that in such serious circumstances there is an argument that someone must be held accountable; but I think a charge of killing people on the back of poor decision making is a heavy burden to carry.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I believe it was the growing violence between home and visiting fans in the 1980s that lead to the fenced in pens, mainly for the visiting fans, and the Leppings Lane end was the visitors enclosure at Sheff Wed.

Very sadly, it was the lack of these pens at the Heysel stadium in 1985 that led to the death of 39 Juventus fans who died trying to escape attacking Liverpool fans when a wall collapsed.

The 'growing violence' between fans was not really that bad and was very ritual in that there were a lot of people running around but not a lot of damage being done.

The '70s and '80s was a peculiar time in terms of the antagonism that existed between the authorities and the working class, and as a result incidents were blown out of all proportion and football fans were deemed to be animals by the authorities.

As someone who went to a lot of football matches during the '80s, believe me the chances of being caught up in violence were slim, and it certainly wasn't the free-for-all that some seem to think. This was a myth perpetuated by the authorities for political reasons and it has grown legs to the extent that people now think football was a bastion of violence. It wasn't. I very, very rarely saw any violence and we always had a big following. If anything the football back then, before it became fashionable, and a play thing for the middle class; was populated by obsessives who pretty much devoted their lives to following their city's/town's football club around the country. The violent types were few and far between.

[Jon Guy]

The 'growing violence' between fans was not really that bad and was very ritual in that there were a lot of people running around but not a lot of damage being done.

The '70s and '80s was a peculiar time in terms of the antagonism that existed between the authorities and the working class, and as a result incidents were blown out of all proportion and football fans were deemed to be animals by the authorities.

As someone who went to a lot of football matches during the '80s, believe me the chances of being caught up in violence were slim, and it certainly wasn't the free-for-all that some seem to think. This was a myth perpetuated by the authorities for political reasons and it has grown legs to the extent that people now think football was a bastion of violence. It wasn't. I very, very rarely saw any violence and we always had a big following. If anything the football back then, before it became fashionable, and a play thing for the middle class; was populated by obsessives who pretty much devoted their lives to following their city's/town's football club around the country. The violent types were few and far between.

I`m flattered you don`t think me old enough, FM, but I was a regular football fan in the late 70s and 80s, and I as I lived in north I used to go with my mates to Liverpool home and away games when my team were not in the area that day. From my experience it was total violence. I wasn`t involved, just a young spectator watching out for himself but it was big lads with sideburns and flares chasing and kicking f##k out of each other. Some of the worst violence I`ve seen was at these games, and or, on the way back to the station. Liverpool fans were as bad as any, and as much as I was shocked and saddened for the dead at Hillsborough, it did not surprise me as to turn up without tickets, drunk and at the very last minute was de rigeur. My mates went to the final in Heysel and the stories they proudly relayed to me of the violence in the bars, blatantly robbing shops in the town and throwing fireworks under police horses was shocking.
But anyway it`s done now and hopefully the end of it all.

[Spitfire]

But anyway it`s done now and hopefully the end of it all.

The clamour is for people to be sent to prison. I understand.

[Phil Carter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQrl5ivhLYU

bang on

[caz]

Available for another 26 days or so here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07bgnkn/hillsborough

Extremely moving and upsetting, but let's hope everyone who had a mucky paw in this over the last 27 years is finally made fully accountable.

I saw the tragedy unfolding on tv that afternoon in April 1989 and I will never forget it.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fleetwood Mac]

Available for another 26 days or so here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07bgnkn/hillsborough

Extremely moving and upsetting, but let's hope everyone who had a mucky paw in this over the last 27 years is finally made fully accountable.

I saw the tragedy unfolding on tv that afternoon in April 1989 and I will never forget it.

Love,

Caz
X

I think there were a lot more people involved in this than a few polis individuals. The climate in the 1980s was very different to these days. For a kick off, the Conservative Party was aiming to smash working class institutions. Imagine if in those days it had come out that actually the authorities were a pack of corrupt, incompetent idiots when they had painted the miners as the very same thing to get the country onside. All dreams of taking apart working class institutions may have pricked the ears of a lot of people previously taken in by the media/government/polis collusion spin.

These days it doesn't really matter because it's a completely different country. The Conservative Party won their battle and achieved their aim a couple of decades ago. Aye, a few people will be pushed forward to take the brunt of it, but the same types of people will remain in the same types of positions although a few people on the fringes will possibly serve punishment.

[caz]

Hi FM,

The thing that gets me is that those in a position of trust, who were directly responsible for all the criminal negligence, the lies (perjury), the cynical - and criminal - alterations to individual police officers' statements and so on, to make the innocent fans look bad while covering their own and other senior policemen's arses, have had the last 27 years to think over what they did, while knowing the relatives and friends of the 96 were suffering not only the awful grief but the bitter injustice of it all, and the tiny few who have so far come clean and owned up to their part in this have only done so because the truth has finally been forced out of them kicking and screaming by the actions of those same relatives, friends and supporters who refused to give up their horrendously uneven struggle.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Retirements on grounds of ill health won't help this time.

Dead right, Phil.

It's no good anyone in the direct firing line hiding behind old age, ill health, stress, depression or drinking, as a result of their own actions or inaction at the time of the tragedy. This is way down the line now, and the admissions, apologies, early retirements, dismissals or criminal proceedings should all have come long ago, when those responsible had no such excuses.

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil Carter]

Hi FM,

The thing that gets me is that those in a position of trust, who were directly responsible for all the criminal negligence, the lies (perjury), the cynical - and criminal - alterations to individual police officers' statements and so on, to make the innocent fans look bad while covering their own and other senior policemen's arses, have had the last 27 years to think over what they did, while knowing the relatives and friends of the 96 were suffering not only the awful grief but the bitter injustice of it all, and the tiny few who have so far come clean and owned up to their part in this have only done so because the truth has finally been forced out of them kicking and screaming by the actions of those same relatives, friends and supporters who refused to give up their horrendously uneven struggle.

Love,

Caz
X

Hello Caz,

What the most galling thing that comes out..is that throughout the LATEST batch of statements, done in front of all and sundry, individuals in the police system in South Yorkshire, STILL lied..STILL insulted the families and STILL tried to cover their own backsides. Luckily..they were found out..which is why the present top man had to resign. Forget that carefully worded statement of remorse AFTER the 14 counts were decided upon..during HIS time in the witness box a few months earlier..he was STILL covering his and his colleagues backsides...to show an inbuilt system riding on the unbelievable fact that there are many in the police force..NOT just in South Yorkshire, who clearly regard themselves above the law and THINK that their loyalty is to themselves first and last.

There are people around here connected to the police force in one way or another..and the silence tells me their colleagues, ex-colleagues and so forth have been fairly and squarely caught with their pants down. We all know it. The actions of those involved cannot possibly be defended in any way. There is no acceptable excuse available.
Saying "that was then and this is now" is infact..a smokescreen..to cover up the well known "boys club of protecting their own". Politicians should also take blame as well..agreed..but don't let the politics of yesteryear fool anyone...a bunch of liars tried to get away with the responsibility of causing the deaths of 96 people. And family members too who have worried themselves silly in many cases. But THEY kept..unbelievably..THEIR dignity.
The army has an old saying.. "if you cant stand the heat...you shouldnt have joined".

I personally hope that anyone connected to this atrocious debacle gets what is coming to them. Heavy as possible too.
Their is simply no defence. Guilty as charged.
Im not political..but the constant support of the shadow Home secretary for the victims families is wonderful to hear.
Early retirement/health grounds/etc...my backside. Stand up and take what is coming to you I say.
You might...just might..show dignity doing that. Your boys club wont help you now...despicable self orientated human beings.

Somehow..I doubt it they have the balls to go back on their lies. And if anyone thinks I am anti police in this matter..you are dead right I am.
Without fear nor favour...my backside. Empty words that clearly mean sod all. Good honest policemen must be ashamed of their colleagues. Bent as a nine bob note.



Phil

[Geddy2112]

I got round to watching the documentary above tonight, it was possibly the most harrowing TV I've seen and I was in tears for those affected by this appalling tragedy and the 27 years it has taken them to get the truth.

My only connection to the disaster is my two close uni mates could not go to the match and sold their tickets to two lads who never came home, they often blamed themselves and it was hard getting them through the events but they got there in the end. I can't even imagine what the families directly involved suffered and continued to suffer.

The cover up that happened that went all the way to the top is disgusting and if that bitch Thatcher was alive today she should have been sent down too. I really hope ALL those to blame get some punishment, it will never bring back the 96 and the family members who 'gave up' but it will surely give some piece of mind.

Well done Liverpool, well done the families of the 96... justice at last..

[caz]

Good honest policemen must be ashamed of their colleagues.

Let's not forget, Phil, there were many officers on duty that day who were being good honest policeman, but decisions and orders from their superiors let them down. For example, some were told not to bother recording what they saw, heard or did in their pocket books (for once in their life) as it was unnecessary in the circumstances! When the officer concerned was out of earshot, one of them had the guts to say "F... that, we'll do it anyway".

Also, many good honest police statements made after the event were subsequently altered to exclude the more harrowing references to victims' suffering and anything that was critical of the way their superior officers had reacted, failed to react, or ordered others to react. The whole thing was an absolute shambles, but many in the emergency services tried their best despite the abysmal leadership.

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil Carter]

Let's not forget, Phil, there were many officers on duty that day who were being good honest policeman, but decisions and orders from their superiors let them down. For example, some were told not to bother recording what they saw, heard or did in their pocket books (for once in their life) as it was unnecessary in the circumstances! When the officer concerned was out of earshot, one of them had the guts to say "F... that, we'll do it anyway".

Also, many good honest police statements made after the event were subsequently altered to exclude the more harrowing references to victims' suffering and anything that was critical of the way their superior officers had reacted, failed to react, or ordered others to react. The whole thing was an absolute shambles, but many in the emergency services tried their best despite the abysmal leadership.

Love,

Caz
X

Hello Caz,

Agreed. There were good honest ones.

Read the news about the Needham case today?

Top policemen on island of Kos sent home after a drinking binge. An 8 hour binge.

the name of the force the officers belonged to investigating the problems surrounding the missing child from many years back?

South Yorkshire Police.

Got a great name that lot...eh?



Phil

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Phil

Many thanks for starting this valuable thread. The 96 supporters who went to see a football match in Sheffield should be remembered and commemorated, and the wrongs done in the wake of the tragedy fully recognized and those who did wrong receive punishment.

Best regards

Chris