Donald Trump

[Fleetwood Mac]

Liberal youth become conservative as they get older and are working for a living so the idea that the conservatives will die off leaving only liberals in charge doesn't work. If it did work then the tens of millions of liberal youth in the 60s, 70s and 80s would have voted in Clinton in landslide proportions.

I've always felt that anyone who purported to be liberal when younger, and then crossed the divide in later years, was never really liberal. More like following the crowd.

Liberalism, and Conservatism for that matter, is something that is in your bones, your heart, your soul; an instinctive way of looking at life.

There are conservative traits in me, but when push comes to shove I would always choose the liberal option on the important matters.

I should say I don't mean left-wing, I mean genuinely liberal.

So, when it comes to a choice between defence and investment at home, it would always be investment at home for me. For one, I don't believe people in another country want to kill us - the appeal to pride and fear is a trick as old as the hills and not a very subtle one at that - but seeing is believing and it's been a long time since I was hit in the face with an Iranian bomb.

When it comes to economic matters, I believe that, as with most things in life, free enterprise is the best option: competition, investment, meritocracy, that sort of thing. I don't believe the conservative approach of Protectionism is the better bet in the long run.

Just two things that mark me out as a liberal at heart.

I would say, however, that the old political landscape of Liberalism and Conservatism is more or less dead. Liberalism won the argument and all Western nations are governed by Liberalism, although different shades depending upon country granted.

Neither the British Conservative Party nor the US Republican Party are conservative parties in practice, although they do share a socially conservative outlook.

[John G]

I've always felt that anyone who purported to be liberal when younger, and then crossed the divide in later years, was never really liberal. More like following the crowd.

Liberalism, and Conservatism for that matter, is something that is in your bones, your heart, your soul; an instinctive way of looking at life.

There are conservative traits in me, but when push comes to shove I would always choose the liberal option on the important matters.

I should say I don't mean left-wing, I mean genuinely liberal.

So, when it comes to a choice between defence and investment at home, it would always be investment at home for me. For one, I don't believe people in another country want to kill us - the appeal to pride and fear is a trick as old as the hills and not a very subtle one at that - but seeing is believing and it's been a long time since I was hit in the face with an Iranian bomb.

When it comes to economic matters, I believe that, as with most things in life, free enterprise is the best option: competition, investment, meritocracy, that sort of thing. I don't believe the conservative approach of Protectionism is the better bet in the long run.

Just two things that mark me out as a liberal at heart.

I would say, however, that the old political landscape of Liberalism and Conservatism is more or less dead. Liberalism won the argument and all Western nations are governed by Liberalism, although different shades depending upon country granted.

Neither the British Conservative Party nor the US Republican Party are conservative parties in practice, although they do share a socially conservative outlook.

I assume you're referring to classic liberalism, emphasizing the importance of liberty, whose proponents include Hayek, Thatcher and Reagan.

I agree with you about protectionism, which is why I believe Trump, if not restrained by Congress, is such a danger to the world economy. It's also why I believe Farage is a hypocrite, as he has previously taken a strong anti-protectionist line.

Strangely enough, it's also the main reason I voted for Remain, rather than Brexit, after a last minute change of heart. Thus, I believe Britain will struggle to negotiate fair trade deals with Europe, or any other nation for that matter, as countries seek to protect what they perceive is their own self interest, even though there may be no rational basis for that approach: just as many working class Trump supporters understandably believe his policies will help protect their jobs, even though many more jobs will be lost in other sectors if the result is a 1930s trade war. As George Santayana acutely observed, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

There is an interesting analysis of the fundamental issues on this link:http://www.usnews.com/opinion/econom...poor-americans

[Patrick S]

I assume you're referring to classic liberalism, emphasizing the importance of liberty, whose proponents include Hayek, Thatcher and Reagan.

I agree with you about protectionism, which is why I believe Trump, if not restrained by Congress, is such a danger to the world economy. It's also why I believe Farage is a hypocrite, as he has previously taken a strong anti-protectionist line.

Strangely enough, it's also the main reason I voted for Remain, rather than Brexit, after a last minute change of heart. Thus, I believe Britain will struggle to negotiate fair trade deals with Europe, or any other nation for that matter, as countries seek to protect what they perceive is their own self interest, even though there may be no rational basis for that approach: just as many working class Trump supporters understandably believe his policies will help protect their jobs, even though many more jobs will be lost in other sectors if the result is a 1930s trade war. As George Santayana acutely observed, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

I really don't feel as if people voted for Trump primarily because they think he'll protect jobs or create some robust, recession-proof economy. I'm sure some did and hope that he will, though. I know that many, many, many people in America are flat out disgusted with Washington, politics in general, corruption, incompetence, greed (all things that Clinton - fair or not - personifies for many). Trump's election seems a rejection of our nation's political elite and their perceived enablers in the media and in Hollywood. I get the sense that tens of millions of people went to the polls for Trump knowing he's an a-hole, knowing he's nothing like them, knowing he's not a particularly moral man, but feeling like he might succeed in making substantive changes to a political system that many view as broken, dirty, and dishonest. He also had the additional attraction of being hated by all of the people that many voters themselves despise. So, voting Trump had a nice cherry on top: driving Lena Dunham and Alec Baldwin and Rachael Maddow and Wolf Blitzer and Van Jones and Jennifer Lawrence and Mark Ruffalo and Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and Rosie O'Donnell and Brad Pitt and Perez Hilton and Madonna and Amy Shumer and.....just about everyone else on TV, in moves, and in the media out of their minds.

[Mayerling]

I really don't feel as if people voted for Trump primarily because they think he'll protect jobs or create some robust, recession-proof economy. I'm sure some did and hope that he will, though. I know that many, many, many people in America are flat out disgusted with Washington, politics in general, corruption, incompetence, greed (all things that Clinton - fair or not - personifies for many). Trump's election seems a rejection of our nation's political elite and their perceived enablers in the media and in Hollywood. I get the sense that tens of millions of people went to the polls for Trump knowing he's an a-hole, knowing he's nothing like them, knowing he's not a particularly moral man, but feeling like he might succeed in making substantive changes to a political system that many view as broken, dirty, and dishonest. He also had the additional attraction of being hated by all of the people that many voters themselves despise. So, voting Trump had a nice cherry on top: driving Lena Dunham and Alec Baldwin and Rachael Maddow and Wolf Blitzer and Van Jones and Jennifer Lawrence and Mark Ruffalo and Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and Rosie O'Donnell and Brad Pitt and Perez Hilton and Madonna and Amy Shumer and.....just about everyone else on TV, in moves, and in the media out of their minds.

Probably quite true Pat. But I strongly fear that within one year the idiots who decided the vote that way will begin to be driven out of their minds - by the ineptitude or contempt for democracy of Trump, and the still (despite majorities) incompetence of the Republicans. They won control of all three branches of the government and most of the state govenments. Now watch them fight each other between the Cruz/Rubio type "moderates" (as they will seem to be now) and the "Tea Partyists" purists. The signs of that were showing before this election.

One of the Republican governors made a comment at a dinner the other night that the Republicans were sorry to see President Obama leave office. It probably was meant as a joke, but some commentators feel that now that the Democrats seem hopelessly in the minority the Republicans can only slice their own throats from now on.

Jeff

[Wickerman]

I really don't feel as if people voted for Trump primarily because they think he'll protect jobs or create some robust, recession-proof economy. I'm sure some did and hope that he will, though. I know that many, many, many people in America are flat out disgusted with Washington, politics in general, corruption, incompetence, greed (all things that Clinton - fair or not - personifies for many). Trump's election seems a rejection of our nation's political elite and their perceived enablers in the media and in Hollywood. I get the sense that tens of millions of people went to the polls for Trump knowing he's an a-hole, knowing he's nothing like them, knowing he's not a particularly moral man, but feeling like he might succeed in making substantive changes to a political system that many view as broken, dirty, and dishonest. He also had the additional attraction of being hated by all of the people that many voters themselves despise. So, voting Trump had a nice cherry on top: driving Lena Dunham and Alec Baldwin and Rachael Maddow and Wolf Blitzer and Van Jones and Jennifer Lawrence and Mark Ruffalo and Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and Rosie O'Donnell and Brad Pitt and Perez Hilton and Madonna and Amy Shumer and.....just about everyone else on TV, in moves, and in the media out of their minds.

One guy was interviewed some weeks ago about who he was voting for.
He told the reporter he's, "sick and tired of government stupidity and interference". He would happily "throw a grenade into the middle of the lot of them. Then Trump came along - we'll he's my grenade"!

This guy probably wasn't alone in that thinking.

[Abby Normal]

I really don't feel as if people voted for Trump primarily because they think he'll protect jobs or create some robust, recession-proof economy. I'm sure some did and hope that he will, though. I know that many, many, many people in America are flat out disgusted with Washington, politics in general, corruption, incompetence, greed (all things that Clinton - fair or not - personifies for many). Trump's election seems a rejection of our nation's political elite and their perceived enablers in the media and in Hollywood. I get the sense that tens of millions of people went to the polls for Trump knowing he's an a-hole, knowing he's nothing like them, knowing he's not a particularly moral man, but feeling like he might succeed in making substantive changes to a political system that many view as broken, dirty, and dishonest. He also had the additional attraction of being hated by all of the people that many voters themselves despise. So, voting Trump had a nice cherry on top: driving Lena Dunham and Alec Baldwin and Rachael Maddow and Wolf Blitzer and Van Jones and Jennifer Lawrence and Mark Ruffalo and Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and Rosie O'Donnell and Brad Pitt and Perez Hilton and Madonna and Amy Shumer and.....just about everyone else on TV, in moves, and in the media out of their minds.

Hi Patrick

I know that many, many, many people in America are flat out disgusted with Washington, politics in general, corruption, incompetence, greed (all things that Clinton - fair or not - personifies for many). Trump's election seems a rejection of our nation's political elite and their perceived enablers in the media and in Hollywood. I get the sense that tens of millions of people went to the polls for Trump knowing he's an a-hole, knowing he's nothing like them, knowing he's not a particularly moral man, but feeling like he might succeed in making substantive changes to a political system that many view as broken, dirty, and dishonest.

Bingo!

[Abby Normal]

Probably quite true Pat. But I strongly fear that within one year the idiots who decided the vote that way will begin to be driven out of their minds - by the ineptitude or contempt for democracy of Trump, and the still (despite majorities) incompetence of the Republicans. They won control of all three branches of the government and most of the state govenments. Now watch them fight each other between the Cruz/Rubio type "moderates" (as they will seem to be now) and the "Tea Partyists" purists. The signs of that were showing before this election.

One of the Republican governors made a comment at a dinner the other night that the Republicans were sorry to see President Obama leave office. It probably was meant as a joke, but some commentators feel that now that the Democrats seem hopelessly in the minority the Republicans can only slice their own throats from now on.

Jeff

Hey

But I strongly fear that within one year the idiots who decided the vote that way will begin to be driven out of their minds

almost half the electorate voted for Trump-some 60 million Americans.
There all idiots?

Let me guess-your candidate/party lost?

[John G]

I really don't feel as if people voted for Trump primarily because they think he'll protect jobs or create some robust, recession-proof economy. I'm sure some did and hope that he will, though. I know that many, many, many people in America are flat out disgusted with Washington, politics in general, corruption, incompetence, greed (all things that Clinton - fair or not - personifies for many). Trump's election seems a rejection of our nation's political elite and their perceived enablers in the media and in Hollywood. I get the sense that tens of millions of people went to the polls for Trump knowing he's an a-hole, knowing he's nothing like them, knowing he's not a particularly moral man, but feeling like he might succeed in making substantive changes to a political system that many view as broken, dirty, and dishonest. He also had the additional attraction of being hated by all of the people that many voters themselves despise. So, voting Trump had a nice cherry on top: driving Lena Dunham and Alec Baldwin and Rachael Maddow and Wolf Blitzer and Van Jones and Jennifer Lawrence and Mark Ruffalo and Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and Rosie O'Donnell and Brad Pitt and Perez Hilton and Madonna and Amy Shumer and.....just about everyone else on TV, in moves, and in the media out of their minds.

Thanks for this, and I'm sure you're right. No doubt many voters felt patronized by Clintontonites in the media and entertainment industry. And Clinton's reference to Trump supporters being "deplorable" was clearly a serious error. For instance, I remember seeing an American blue collar worker being interviewed on tv, stating he was going to vote for Trump, who he clearly had no illusions about, because, "at least with Trump I've got a chance.' I mean, what's deplorable, or even irrational, about that?

I would also concede that, if you ignore most of the rhetoric, some of Trump's policies are not that extreme: regarding illegal immigration, many Western democracies are taking a strong line on this issue. Even the British Labour Party, led by the very left wing Jeremy Cornyn, pledge in their manifesto to recruit an additional 1,000 border staff, and argue that, "we need much stronger action to stop illegal immigration." http://www.labour.org.uk/manifesto/immigration

Trump states that he will deport 2-3 million illegal immigrants. However, President Obama administration has deported over 2.5 million illegal immigrants, more than any other president in history: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obama...ry?id=41715661

Trump has even been accused of being an anti Semite. Well, if that's true he must have a really unhappy family life, considering that his son-in-law is Jewish and his daughter is a Jewish convert!

[c.d.]

Just for you and Abby, c.d:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=how%27s+your+father

Love,

Caz
X

Thanks, Caz. Their father would hide under their skirts? Hmmmmmmm.
You always come up with some good ones, Caz. I seem to remember one I particularly liked -- something about a big girls sweater? What was that one?

c.d.

[Mayerling]

Hey




almost half the electorate voted for Trump-some 60 million Americans.
There all idiots?

Let me guess-your candidate/party lost?

Abby, I will try to explain it once more and than give up. I hate the bitch, but I hated her less than the winner. So I voted for her, but I made no effort to convince people to vote against Trump because I felt they had same right if they viewed Hillary as the bigger evil. I'm not happy with the result, and I fear the worse for everyone. However, I feel that the 60 million who supported him will probably feel (in the long run) worse than I will for not supporting him. He may hold the title and office, but he'll never be my President.

I have also, somewhere on this thread or elsewhere, made the point that the one ray of sunshine in the entire matter that came out is this puts a finis on the idea of two modern dynasties emerging: Bush (after two Presidencies, though the first Bush (G.H.W.B.) was tolerable), and Clinton* (after two family members made it to the nomination, and one served two terms). I'm sick and tired of dynasts.

Of course I bet Trump will try to create one.

Jeff

[*I think you may appreciate this one Abby. While I type on these boards, frequently my fingers slip and I end up writing something which is part error but part "Freudian slip". As I wrote the name "Clinton", I discovered I mislabeled it "Clingon". My "Star Trek" upbringing realizes that eventually the "Klingons" became part of the "Federation", but I thought the error was interesting to say the least.]

[Fleetwood Mac]

I assume you're referring to classic liberalism, emphasizing the importance of liberty, whose proponents include Hayek, Thatcher and Reagan.

These people were not classical liberals.

Certainly not Thatcher and Reagan anyway.

Thatcher and associates were typical anti-Working Class Tories who cherry-picked bits and pieces of an ideal in order to smash working class institutions and they were not averse to spreading outright lies in the media in an attempt to garner support for their cause.

JSM, the Father of Classical Liberalism, was a strong advocate of Trade Unionism and a free press; and in this and many other ways was nothing like Thatcher.

People like Thatcher are so arrogant that they truly believe they are entitled to waltz into other people's countries and smash the place up as in their minds some society based upon free enterprise will magically emerge out of the ashes. Except all they serve to achieve is to create a vacuum for assorted nationalists to fill. JSM would never have supported that. That is not advocating liberty by anyone's standards. Liberty isn't a tap you can turn on and off: in the event you can't respect the sovereignty of another nation then you certainly aren't an advocate of liberty.

Affording Thatcher the status of following in the tradition of JSM? What an insult to the man.

[John G]

These people were not classical liberals.

Certainly not Thatcher and Reagan anyway.

Thatcher and associates were typical anti-Working Class Tories who cherry-picked bits and pieces of an ideal in order to smash working class institutions and they were not averse to spreading outright lies in the media in an attempt to garner support for their cause.

JSM, the Father of Classical Liberalism, was a strong advocate of Trade Unionism and a free press; and in this and many other ways was nothing like Thatcher.

People like Thatcher are so arrogant that they truly believe they are entitled to waltz into other people's countries and smash the place up as in their minds some society based upon free enterprise will magically emerge out of the ashes. Except all they serve to achieve is to create a vacuum for assorted nationalists to fill. JSM would never have supported that. That is not advocating liberty by anyone's standards. Liberty isn't a tap you can turn on and off: in the event you can't respect the sovereignty of another nation then you certainly aren't an advocate of liberty.

Affording Thatcher the status of following in the tradition of JSM? What an insult to the man.

John Stuart Mill was not the father of "classic liberalism", that's absurd. In fact, the term didn't even exist at the time: Mill referred to himself simply as a "liberal."

It could be argued that Thomas Hobbes, a very conservative thinker, was the "father" of what subsequently became known as classic liberalism, although the main tenets of the philosophy were developed by enlightenment thinkers such as David Hume, William Robertson and Adam Smith- who uses the term "liberal" in the Wealth of Nations (1776). This was 83 years before Mill's major work on the subject, On Liberty (1859).

In fact, if anything JSM could be regarded as the father of social liberalism, or at least what became known as "new liberalism", as he deviated from the accepted liberal-line by arguing for a more interventionist state.

[Abby Normal]

Abby, I will try to explain it once more and than give up. I hate the bitch, but I hated her less than the winner. So I voted for her, but I made no effort to convince people to vote against Trump because I felt they had same right if they viewed Hillary as the bigger evil. I'm not happy with the result, and I fear the worse for everyone. However, I feel that the 60 million who supported him will probably feel (in the long run) worse than I will for not supporting him. He may hold the title and office, but he'll never be my President.

I have also, somewhere on this thread or elsewhere, made the point that the one ray of sunshine in the entire matter that came out is this puts a finis on the idea of two modern dynasties emerging: Bush (after two Presidencies, though the first Bush (G.H.W.B.) was tolerable), and Clinton* (after two family members made it to the nomination, and one served two terms). I'm sick and tired of dynasts.

Of course I bet Trump will try to create one.

Jeff

[*I think you may appreciate this one Abby. While I type on these boards, frequently my fingers slip and I end up writing something which is part error but part "Freudian slip". As I wrote the name "Clinton", I discovered I mislabeled it "Clingon". My "Star Trek" upbringing realizes that eventually the "Klingons" became part of the "Federation", but I thought the error was interesting to say the least.]

LOL. Hillary Clingon! love it.
No worries and I appreciate your frankness. At least you didn't call us all sexists or racists or whatever "ist" gets thrown around waaaaay to easily these days.

It was a tough and bitter race with a lot of hard feelings, so I actually can understand some of the response.

yes-I voted for Trump. Well, held my nose and voted for him anyway. But not after staring at the names on the ballot for a while.

mainly for the reasons Patrick stated above. It was basically the lesser of two evils sort of thing, and I almost didn't vote at all. and I dearly hope I don't regret it-I want him to succeed because I want us, America, to succeed. Id say the same thing if Hillary would have won.

full disclosure. I'm registered Independent. there is no party for me. I feel strongly for and against major planks in both parties. I vote for whoever candidate I think will make a better president and who I like better. I voted for Obama and think he did a good job first term-second go round not so much.

and I agree with you about the dynasties-that's part of how the corruption and mutual back scratching starts, which I, like many of my fellow Americans think is out of hand. Ive been saying from the beginning do we really want another Bush or Clinton in the White House. Ive also said from the beginning I don't like either candidate, Hillary or Trump, but in the end I dislike Trump less. Kind of sad I know, but there you go. So now hes president and I hope he does a good job.

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and see how he does, but I promise if he blows up the world, Ill be the first to raise my hand and admit I was an idiot for voting for him. ; )

I see from your profile your a civil servant, so thank you for your service and dedication to public life.

[Patrick S]

Probably quite true Pat. But I strongly fear that within one year the idiots who decided the vote that way will begin to be driven out of their minds - by the ineptitude or contempt for democracy of Trump, and the still (despite majorities) incompetence of the Republicans. They won control of all three branches of the government and most of the state govenments. Now watch them fight each other between the Cruz/Rubio type "moderates" (as they will seem to be now) and the "Tea Partyists" purists. The signs of that were showing before this election.

One of the Republican governors made a comment at a dinner the other night that the Republicans were sorry to see President Obama leave office. It probably was meant as a joke, but some commentators feel that now that the Democrats seem hopelessly in the minority the Republicans can only slice their own throats from now on.

Jeff

I wouldn't presume to debate your opinion in that - with politics - that's always an exercise in futility. I'd just suggest that you needn't "strongly fear" Trump, the electorate, Republicans, the next four years. I feel confident in my decades old realization that US Presidents, in reality, are no longer very consequential. When Obama was elected I heard Republicans bemoan the death of our country, the end of our capitalist system. None of that happened. We're still here. Yeah, the Middle East is a mess. But, does anyone really think, that it wouldn't be if McCain or Romney had been elected? How much better or worse would the economy be? How much higher or lower would the S&P be? When Obama was elected for the second time my mother called me and told me she's "worried sick" about what will be "left of the country for her grandchildren." I told her what I'm telling people who are so "afraid" of the coming "Trump Years": turn off the TV, stop reading doom-and-gloom in the papers. If it wasn't for some disembodied head on television telling you how miserable you are and how afraid you should be, you'd have no idea you were miserable and that you should be afraid. I don't recall a president or any government policies having an overly negative or positive impact on how I conduct my life, my finances, how I look at the future. I've made a few adjustment here and there, taken advantage here, mitigated there. In the end, it's just all tiny deviations from the mean, from what the capitalist system, our culture, our society, and the world dictate. Do what I do.....just watch sports.

[Abby Normal]

I wouldn't presume to debate your opinion in that - with politics - that's always an exercise in futility. I'd just suggest that you needn't "strongly fear" Trump, the electorate, Republicans, the next four years. I feel confident in my decades old realization that US Presidents, in reality, are no longer very consequential. When Obama was elected I heard Republicans bemoan the death of our country, the end of our capitalist system. None of that happened. We're still here. Yeah, the Middle East is a mess. But, does anyone really think, that it wouldn't be if McCain or Romney had been elected? How much better or worse would the economy be? How much higher or lower would the S&P be? When Obama was elected for the second time my mother called me and told me she's "worried sick" about what will be "left of the country for her grandchildren." I told her what I'm telling people who are so "afraid" of the coming "Trump Years": turn off the TV, stop reading doom-and-gloom in the papers. If it wasn't for some disembodied head on television telling you how miserable you are and how afraid you should be, you'd have no idea you were miserable and that you should be afraid. I don't recall a president or any government policies having an overly negative or positive impact on how I conduct my life, my finances, how I look at the future. I've made a few adjustment here and there, taken advantage here, mitigated there. In the end, it's just all tiny deviations from the mean, from what the capitalist system, our culture, our society, and the world dictate. Do what I do.....just watch sports.

LOL. so true. the world will keep turning, nothing really changes and redskins will keep losing on Monday night football.

But... but.. hoping our new president at the least, moves the needle a little bit in ridding politics of its current corruption and apathy.*


*hope springs eternal...


....usually followed by disappointment. LOL.
keeping fingers crossed.