The Phantom Punch?

[barnflatwyngarde]

Was discussing Muhammad Ali with friends the other night, and we inevitably got round to discussing his 2 fights with Sonny Liston.

I remember getting up in the middle of the night to watch the 2nd fight live with my dad, only for it to be over before it began.

Both fights were full of drama, but the 2nd fight still generates much debate today.

Did Liston throw the fight?
Did Ali actually connect with the "phantom" punch?
If he did connect, was the punch hard enough to put Liston down?

I attach a link to a You Tube clip that I think settles the debate once and for all, or is this an overly optimistic hope?

Two things to notice in the clip.

1st. When the punch connects, look at Ali's right pectoral muscle, he clearly made contact with something.

2nd. When the punch connects, look at the shock waves travel down Listons body, something clearly hit him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prxnGjKjxoo&index=129&list=FLg7lftw5hwo91llQdp1r1Hg

[Robert]

It's hard from this angle to see. Liston seems to get hit, but where? Side of head, forehead or jaw? Presumably only jaw would KO him.

[sdreid]

It's hard from this angle to see. Liston seems to get hit, but where? Side of head, forehead or jaw? Presumably only jaw would KO him.

It doesn't look hard enough to KO him to me.

I'm not sure that the fight was on live TV here in the States. Regarding the second fight, I can't recall for sure but I did listen to the first fight live on the radio, not sure if it was AM or shortwave.

At the time prior to the first fight, Liston was viewed as possibly being a great fighter who might be the next Joe Louis and be champion for many years. Today, few people seem to realize this.

[Robert]

Hi Stan

From what I've read, Liston had an awesomely intimidating aura, a bit like the young Tyson. But Liston wasn't young - his age was a matter of conjecture - and he underestimated Ali by not preparing properly for the first fight. Years later, Ali said something about the importance of style, how Norton beat him but Foreman beat Norton and he beat Foreman. Liston probably just wasn't cut out for Ali's style.

[barnflatwyngarde]

It doesn't look hard enough to KO him to me.

I'm not sure that the fight was on live TV here in the States. Regarding the second fight, I can't recall for sure but I did listen to the first fight live on the radio, not sure if it was AM or shortwave.

At the time prior to the first fight, Liston was viewed as possibly being a great fighter who might be the next Joe Louis and be champion for many years. Today, few people seem to realize this.

It is the punch you don't see coming that does the damage.
Liston is coming in low to try and avoid Ali's jab, and I think he simply didn't see it.

[Errata]

It's hard from this angle to see. Liston seems to get hit, but where? Side of head, forehead or jaw? Presumably only jaw would KO him.

A blow to the temple will do it too, will in fact kill a man, and a hard enough blow to the ear will knock a man down. It looks like it connected to the ear or jaw. If it was the ear, it may have hit just in the right way to knock his inner ear senseless, causing him to experience terrible vertigo and loss of balance, flattening him. He wouldn't lose consciousness probably, but he wouldn't be able to get up either. And I would expect vomiting in short order.

But that's a lucky blow. It happens maybe once in a boxer's lifetime. I got hit like that on accident in a basketball game. About the least amount of fun I've had since birth.

[Robert]

Hi Errata

Although Liston was groggy, he didn't seem nauseous, at least from the aftermath as shown here.

There was some controversy about the count - Ali did not stay in a neutral corner :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8DR0P0PV5c

[Mayerling]

Whether or not Liston threw that second fight will be debated for many years to come (like whether or not, decades earlier, Jack Johnson "allowed" Jess Willard to beat him in the heavyweight bout in Havana in 1915). Sports questions are as potent a source of argument as Criminal History questions (such as in "Ripperology"). Think of the Tunney-Dempsey "Long Count" controversy too.

[Howard Brown]

Stan:
Both fights were on closed circuit television in northern Alabama and I saw both of them when I was a kid.
Liston threw the fight.

[GUT]

In slow motion Ali hit him.

[Errata]

Hi Errata

Although Liston was groggy, he didn't seem nauseous, at least from the aftermath as shown here.

There was some controversy about the count - Ali did not stay in a neutral corner :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8DR0P0PV5c

A dive is almost always choreographed to be excessive reaction to a blow that actually lands. Much easier that feigning getting hit and running the risk of going down while you opponent has his back turned or something equally ridiculous. There's really no other way to take a dive with any sort of credibility, and this was a high profile fight. So a punch landed. The question is whether or not it hit hard enough to cause a knockout.

From the way Liston's jaw moves, I think it likely did hit hard enough, all things considered. But it could have been a lessor blow he blew out of proportion, thus taking a dive. But I think the hit to the lower half of the face is genuine. I just can't gauge if it's a hard enough blow to topple a man.

[Rosella]

I saw a YouTube discussion on 'the phantom punch' in which Jack Dempsey commented that as he wasn't on the receiving end of it he couldn't comment on how hard the punch was and whether it could have been a knockout! Which is fair enough, nobody knows but Liston how hard the punch was!

This is certainly going to be debated for ever. Liston was an extremely good fighter, probably in the top four of all time, but his criminal convictions and mob connections have obscured much that was good about his character and ability.

There were always the rumours that the Mob wanted him to take the fall in the second fight with Clay as he then was (it was the first fight where Liston underestimated Clay/Ali and, under the influence of others, didn't even bother to train.) It was even said that the Muslim Brotherhood had threatened the safety of Sonny Liston's wife if he didn't lose, which I don't believe at all!

[sdreid]

Possibly Ali hit Liston hard enough to knock him down but not out. Maybe Liston, with his bell rung, decided to lay down and collect the cash. It all paid the same after all.

[Robert St Devil]

Didnt realze canelo-cotto was going to have so many undercards.

As for Liston, i know theres teh floating allegation that al's outside influences played a part in getting Liston to throw the fight. But Taking into consideration his talents - he could punch with both hands, he could knock someone out moving backwards, he could take an a-- whuppin better tha anyone, he was just that good & nearing his prime - i say he knocked a past his prime champ out.

Real fight would have been him and Marciano. SR Robinson sAid in his auto- that Ali's style wojld have beat Rock, but Rock never loses. Marciano by late ko.

[Robert St Devil]

Fight boke out in the 8th. Canelo is a true mexican body puncher. Cottos jab has disappeared.