Ex-Nazi "Bookkeeper of Auschwitz" Asks for 'Forgiveness'

[Fleetwood Mac]

This is just silly.

Why is that?

[Graham]

Why is that?

Because you don't establish an Empire that paints one-third of the world map red by growing spuds in your back yard. From the Stuart period on, there was nothing 'modest' about English ambitions.

Graham

[Robert]

Fleetwood, I am not saying that the USSR won the war : I am saying that it was the single biggest factor in Germany's defeat.

Of course, at first the Germans carried all before them and if they'd been dealing with a geographically smaller and less populous country, that would have been it. But they were not.

From the opening of operations on the Eastern Front the majority of Germany's forces were engaged there.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Because you don't establish an Empire that paints one-third of the world map red by growing spuds in your back yard. From the Stuart period on, there was nothing 'modest' about English ambitions.

Graham

Then you would have to define what you mean by English.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood, I am not saying that the USSR won the war : I am saying that it was the single biggest factor in Germany's defeat.

Of course, at first the Germans carried all before them and if they'd been dealing with a geographically smaller and less populous country, that would have been it. But they were not.

From the opening of operations on the Eastern Front the majority of Germany's forces were engaged there.

The single biggest factor in Germany's defeat was Germany.

[Graham]

Then you would have to define what you mean by English.

Christ Almighty............

Graham

[Robert]

Fleetwood, it's just silly to deny the facts : the USSR was the single biggest factor in Nazi Germany's defeat.

[Ginger]

Fleetwood, it's just silly to deny the facts : the USSR was the single biggest factor in Nazi Germany's defeat.

Really? Not France, then?

[Robert]

Ever since the unification of Germany the Germans have had the advantage over France - big population advantage and much more powerful economy.

[Mayerling]

Sometime people use a racial code word, and I don't know if they meant to, and this is one of those times. There is no Zionist lobby. Hasn't been one since 1948. Because the sole aim of Zionism was to create a homeland for Jews in the Land of Israel. Done. The only Zionism that still exists today is the organization that helps persecuted Jews escape and settle in Israel. The Yemeni Jews, The Ethiopian Jews, etc. And I'm positive that's not what you're talking about. So when you hear about a "Zionist lobby", a "Zionist regime", a "Zionist plot", they don't mean Zionism. And they know that they don't mean Zionism. They mean "filthy Kiikes". Almost every single time. They just don't want to come off as racist.

Either you didn't know, or you in fact meant "those damn Jews". Your business either way, but if you were trying to use the phrase in some respectful way, I figure someone should probably point that out to you so you don't accidentally bust that phrase out when dining with a rabbi. If it was not meant to be respectful, then never mind.

The reason everyone focuses on the Holocaust is because it was the first time there was a white genocide. It was not the first genocide (lost to history), it was not the worst genocide (Communist China). It was the first in modern history with white victims, and the first to be filmed and popularly distributed. It is the genocide most meticulously documented by the perpetrators. By 1970, it was estimated that every American had seen a picture or film or had met a Holocaust survivor. And that was probably true into the mid 90s, it's estimated that today only about 70% of Americans could point to a picture of a Holocaust survivor and identify it. Mostly because it is no longer taught in most schools.

And if other genocides were regularly remembered or taught, then maybe it wouldn't so bad if the Holocaust faded out of the public eye. But they aren't. A schoolchild in the United States has four or more genocides that could be taught as a part of US History. We don't teach them. And we don't cover them in World History either. Kids don't know this exists. I have one 14 year old niece here in Tennessee and another 14 year old niece in New Jersey, and neither had heard the term until a few months ago. They can now tell you that the Holocaust and the Killing Fields were both genocides, but they probably can't tell you where they happened or who was targeted. And likely would identify a dead Tutsi as a victim of the Holocaust.

So the Jews said "Never forget" and I think that's a good policy. It doesn't have to be the Holocaust. I think Jews have that covered. Remember that genocide exists. That war criminals exist, and are out there. That there are war crimes for a reason, and it's generally a good one. Remember that justice for one man or one group doesn't take away the need for justice for all. Nor does that justice denigrate those who have not yet received justice. Remember that humans should not be fans of genocide. Should not turn a blind eye. Encourage the country to actually decide what is going to be our course of action in the event of rape and murder and torture on an unspeakable scale, and then stick to it even if the sufferers are white or sitting on oil (prepare to be disappointed). Remember Holodomor. Build a museum, a wall, wear a t shirt. Teach people about it and command them to never let it happen again. Since we aren't getting the message on genocide by ONLY remembering the Holocaust, it's not like the help won't be welcome. We still have half a dozen genocides currently taking place in the world this very minute, so by all means jump in. It's a bit of an "All hands on deck" situation out there.

Hi Errata,

Interestingly I have to make one correction here (being Jewish I'm in full accord with most of what you wrote). The first modern genocide of a white Caucasian group was one hundred years ago in Armenia by the Ottoman Empire in World War I. I just attended a book signing on a new book by the actor Eric Bogosian "Operation Nemesis" about how the "Young Turk" leadership that fled after the Ottoman defeat in 1918 was hunted down by a group of Armenian survivors - six of the leaders were assassinated in the 1920s in Europe, and in one notable case (ironically in Germany) the assassin was acquitted after a trial. The Armenian Holocaust influenced the Nazis, with Hitler saying (supposedly), "Who remembers the Armenians?" when considering getting rid of Jews.

Jeff

[Fleetwood Mac]

Christ Almighty............

Graham

It's not nearly as 'silly' as you seem to think.

Were the English really so well equipped for war once professional outfits such as Germany and the United States started throwing an inordinate level of resources into it?

We always had a small standing army. Highly trained, granted, but nowhere near what was needed to compete once war became much more professional in its scope. Largely, this was down to the English people who could stomach a navy that to them would guarantee their peaceful existence, but could not stomach the funding of a large standing army.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Ever since the unification of Germany the Germans have had the advantage over France - big population advantage and much more powerful economy.

Robert, there is a great deal of popular history regarding Germany, France, the United States and the USSR around those two world wars, some of which has only a modicum of basis in reality.

The Germans did not have the advantage over France that is widely imagined today. Today, people look at the German Army and think it was some highly efficient, unstoppable machine.

In actual fact, the Germans were still using horses in huge numbers for transport. The French had the advantage in certain other areas of mechanised warfare/equipment at the outbreak of WW2.

The main reasons why they steamrollered the French (who put up a much better fight than popular history suggests and they played a large part in saving us and some of their compatriots at Dunkirk) was because tactically the French got it wrong and they went into the war with the wrong mind-set too.

Firstly, they built the Maginot Line, which was only ever intended to be a defensive structure. This was a huge mistake as they were effectively telling themselves that they didn't fancy a war in the open country nor going on the offensive, i.e. they believed they were limited in what they could achieve. A hugely negative attitude to take into a war when what they needed was a spirit to grind it out and on occasion take the war to the Germans.

Secondly, they did not believe the Germans could march through the Ardennes and so lightly manned the area. When the Germans were spotted in the Ardennes, French commanders didn't believe it and refused to believe it, when they still had precious time to close the gap. Once the Germans were out of the Ardennes and French commanders knew it to be true, it was too late. The Allied armies had gone merrily marching into Belgium and now the Germans were behind them and in front of them - throwing them into disarray.

French soldiers fought on bravely including holding up the Germans outside Dunkirk so that thousands of British and French soldiers could escape to England. The French command let down their soldiers and that is why they only lasted 6 weeks.

Still, it always rankles with me when I here people say the French is, the French that when it comes to war, knowing what French soldiers endured during WW1. Fair's fair.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The USA had the (initially dormant) manufacturing capacity, but only really became the 'senior partner' at the end of WW2.

In order to win a war, military capability is only one component of a much greater series of resources needed.

You needed military capability, finance, powerful friends, a decent propaganda machine.

The Americans bank-rolled Britain. They owned us. They held the power to cripple our country never mind our war effort. Due to petty tories such as Lord North and their jingoistic nonsense, and naïve, stupid liberals who believed in the 'honour of Britain', we became embroiled in a war that effectively ruined centuries of innovation, craft and endeavour - WW1. Woodrow Wilson said something like: "keep lending to the British and they will soon be dancing to our tune". And, we were, the debt meant they controlled us.

Upon entering the war, they were immediately the senior partner because they owned us. They decided strategy. They blocked Churchill's initiatives. As time went on, the British were increasingly marginalised in discussions on Allied strategy because we didn't hold much bargaining power: no powerful military, no finance etc. The only thing we had was a base for Americans to use for an invasion of continental Europe, but that wasn't much of a bargaining chip when the Americans quite easily argued that we're giving soldiers' lives to help your country.

One very small example is that when the United States Army came to Britain, they brought with them the segregation of black soldiers that existed in the United States and a military police to police it. We didn't like it and had no problem with black soldiers having a beer in our pubs nor being treated as equals. But, we had to put up with it. The United States brought with them their system and instilled it in our country and we had no option but to go along with it, if we wanted their help. That's how little bargaining power and control over affairs we had. It was their show and we were the junior partner from the outset.

[Fleetwood Mac]

For a crime of the sheer magnitude of The Holocaust there can be no forgiveness, either on a national or a personal level. I hope that the 'Bookkeeper Of Auschwitz" burns in Hell, along with the tens of thousands of other sub-humans who obeyed without question their orders from above. How a supposedly modern, supposedly civilised, supposedly even Christian society such as Germany between 1933 and 1945 could have done what was done, is almost completely beyond my belief. They got off lightly, all of them. And yet there they are. the most powerful, the richest, nation in Europe, telling formerly occupied and raped countries like Greece how they must succumb to the power of the mighty Berlin-backed Euro. This really is the World Gone Wrong.

Graham

Well:

Firstly, Germany today has nothing to do with Germany in 1939.

Secondly, the Germans and the French always envisaged a political union in Europe, and quite clearly as the largest industrialised nation Germany was going to run the show, with the French holding some power providing they stayed close to the Germans. Put simply, we have the inevitable outcome of German and French plans drawn up as far back as the 1950s. And, to be fair, everyone knew this to be the case. Greece knew the Germans were going to be the dominant partner when they signed up to the agreement, so no use in crying when things don't go your way and the dominant partner starts to throw her weight about. That was the deal.

Thirdly, it is quite clear how this happened in Germany. You would need to read around 19th century German history to understand this peculiar country.

[Limehouse]

For a crime of the sheer magnitude of The Holocaust there can be no forgiveness, either on a national or a personal level. I hope that the 'Bookkeeper Of Auschwitz" burns in Hell, along with the tens of thousands of other sub-humans who obeyed without question their orders from above. How a supposedly modern, supposedly civilised, supposedly even Christian society such as Germany between 1933 and 1945 could have done what was done, is almost completely beyond my belief. They got off lightly, all of them. And yet there they are. the most powerful, the richest, nation in Europe, telling formerly occupied and raped countries like Greece how they must succumb to the power of the mighty Berlin-backed Euro. This really is the World Gone Wrong.

Graham

Absolutely Graham - and, at the risk of steering slightly off topic, I fear there are those around today who would stand by and watch boats full of desperate immigrants being marched into death camps. We have already heard from Katie Hopkins, who has publically stated that she wants to see 'coffins and bodies floating in the water - I don't care'. It could happen all over again.