Tolkien Geeks: Geek Out Here. :)

[Ausgirl]

I had always thought of Old Man Willow as Huorn, myself, but then I looked at the description of him by Tom, as an old "grey" spirit, with the impression omw was a different sort of entity that had infested the tree, so I dunno anymore.

I can totally see Ents leading Huorns out of Beleriand's forests when it went under, though.

[Pcdunn]

I was always intrigued by JRR Tolkien saying he wanted to give England the native mythology it had never had. Britain had the Celtic myths and the Nordic myths, but none for the English.

Do you folks think he has succeeded? Certainly the Shire is English, down to its agricultural roots, and Shakespeare would recognize the elves and fairies, but what else?

[martin wilson]

Hi all

Some great points here, I'd forgotten about the Huorns. Back to the books!

I agree to some extent, Cogidubnus, I know Alan Moore (Watchmen, V for Vendetta) just washes his hands of whatever Hollywood makes of his work, not through hubris I think, but as he says it's a completely different medium and the demands of studios are also completely different.
I suppose it's true that responsibility to Tolkien fans have to be balanced with real world commercial interests, although as any actor who has net points knows, no film ever makes any money. it's just that imho the best parts of the films are coincidentally pure Tolkien.
The production designers on LOTR 'got it', the Argonath, the ruined statues, the sense of history that runs through the book.
The Hobbit. Not so much, and the non canon stuff is by and large bloody awful.
All the best.

[martin wilson]

Hi all

I'm not sure he did achieve that, Pc Dunn. From what I see I think the mythology of the English begins in 1914 and ends in 1945.
It's arguable that Tolkien himself was influenced it, certainly it's been said that Sam represents the courage and spirit of the ordinary man in the trenches of WW1.
The Hobbits are a little bit patronising, although he does capture the folk of the Midlands very well, within memory for me of my dad's generation.
It's not that we are ignorant of the doings of the 'big people' just that we have rightly judged it to be the works of utter stupidity.
All the best.

[Ausgirl]

martin,

how hairy are your feet?

- aus

[Ausgirl]

I have never seen the LoTR as 'pure' English, in the way other mythologies are by and large shaped entirely by the culture of their native people. I think he cobbled together a patchwork of myths from all over the place, and plonked in the shire in the middle. The other-culture influences are so obvious, I think it falls rather short of a "mythology for England", personally.

But as a fictional universe containing a parallel archaic England, it works extremely well and precisely the way a myth should.

[martin wilson]

Hi Ausgirl

Monstrous hairy, like I'm walking around on a couple of wigs.

But I suppose they had to be a quiet,content little folk, neither wanting nor understanding of power. a major theme.
Funny how those that crave power, Sauron,Saruman, Denethor, Boromir, all come to bad ends.
The genius was in making power a real, attainable object.
All the best.

[Ausgirl]

The genius was in making power a real, attainable object

... and handing it to a Hobbit.

My favourite character of the week is Gandalf/Olorin/Mithrandir, because I'm enjoying the contrast between his true nature as a Maia and the 'Gandalf' who visits the Shire.

I wonder what happened to the two blue wizards? Why were two of them 'blue'? <-- Is another mystery within the books I've yet to fully delve into.

[martin wilson]

Hi Ausgirl

I was just delighted to see the films made. I was even more delighted when the cinema audience jumped six feet up in the air when Bilbo turned momentarily evil in Rivendell.
See, Tolkien got it right to some extent, too many years ago, telling my mates about this great book they were like "Elves and fairy's? bloimey"
Then it took over the world, and nothing to do with fairy tales at all precious.
All the best.

[martin wilson]

They went down to Harad where the stars are strange and got trampled by an oliphaunt.
Or Sauron captured them and partook of their power, which is why he could take form as a large fiery eyeball.
Best idea in The Hobbit, Sauron being the iris.

All the best.

[Cogidubnus]

As an aside I've lived with the Hobbit since about 1960 and LOTR (to which I came late) since about 1968...I've re-read LOTR on average about twice a year ever since - no great problem for a fairly prolific reader - and nothing fictional I've ever read (and you'd better believe I'm a big reader) measures up anywhere near LOTR...perhaps that makes me a sad sod...but hey who cares...

[martin wilson]

Hi all

I'm definitely a sad sod, and proud of it, and there are an awful lot of us......

Ausgirl

The Istari are like the Reservoir Dogs of middle earth, there is Mr Grey, Mr White, Mr Brown, Mr Blue and er, Mr Blue.
Blue is Manwe's colour, the skies, the clouds, the winds and the eagles.
That doesn't help at all does it?
Ask Jeff Lynne, Mr Blue Sky, he knows.
All the best.

[Ausgirl]

Cogi, we're just a sad sod mob, I guess.

I found a wonderful 'composite' map of Arda, with ALL the major locations through ALL the ages on it!! It really helps spatially confused persons like me to put the 1st age lands and the 3rd age Middle Earth of the LoTR books into perspective.

Squee.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130519140517/lotr/images/7/7f/A_Map_of_Middle-earth_and_the_Undying_Lands_color.jpg

And here's one that shows the forests of the first age, including the gardens of the Entwives, which in the 3rd age ofc are the desolate Brown Lands.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100227194546/lotr/images/5/57/Forests_from_First_to_Third_Age.jpg

I kind of think they all perished... and the Ents are all in denial. /cry

[Ausgirl]

Bahaha, Reservoir Dogs. LoTR by Tarantino might've been.... nah.

As for the Blue wizards.. I know they went East to Khand and Rhun and pretty much messed things up for the Dark Lord over there. Not much is said about them, other than that, except they 'might have' founded some magical cults that lived on afterwards. And not much else is said about those, either.

And probably just went back to Valinor when it was all over.

I wish there was a far-east version of LoTR, Blue Wizards and Easterlings and wotwot.

[Dane_F]

As an aside I've lived with the Hobbit since about 1960 and LOTR (to which I came late) since about 1968...I've re-read LOTR on average about twice a year ever since - no great problem for a fairly prolific reader - and nothing fictional I've ever read (and you'd better believe I'm a big reader) measures up anywhere near LOTR...perhaps that makes me a sad sod...but hey who cares...

Possibly not the best place to discuss this, but even as an avid Tolkien fan I've found 2 series that I think are just better than LOTR: The Wheel of Time Series and A Song of Fire and Ice Series. Tolkien was no doubt the creator of all following worlds that built on his ideas.

If you haven't read them (I'm sure you have if you are an avid reader) then definitely look into them.