Tolkien Geeks: Geek Out Here. :)

[Ausgirl]

Hi,

Martin Wilson and I were having a discussion on the latest Hobbit film over on the movie thread, and kind of veered off topic a bit, re the nature of Tom Bombadil and such, so I thought making a Tolkien-dedicated thread would be cool.

Here's the tag end of our discussion, if anyone's interested:

I read the Silmarillion again just last year. It's become my favourite of all the Tolkien books, over the years.

Not having an off-topic LoTR spaz or anything, but I think Ungoliant and Tom Bombadil might be akin to each other in some vague regard. Opposing forces?

Hi Ausgirl

I like that idea, you obviously know your Tolkien, and the correspondence of good/evil characters.
I read a theory that Bombadil is the music of the Ainur as he was 'first of all' and the music was the first thing created, perhaps, but as the discord of Melkor came later in the music, I think he represents Arda unmarred, and Ungoliant represents the thought of Melkor, of darkness, a devourer of light. and 'the first' in her own respect.

Good Stuff, I'm off to read The Silmarrilion again.

All the best.

Gotta be other fans of the books and/or films out there... coo-ee?

[Ausgirl]

Martin, I was actually reading that Music theory you put me onto, when it struck me that Ungoliant was the only other character I could think of, of whom it's overtly said that no-one had a clue where she really came from. Which makes her every bit as much an oddity as Bombadil.

Plus, she 'came in' with Melkor out of the 'dark' surrounding Arda... And she both acted of her own free will, in challenging Melkor (Tom appears to have 'free will' where the One Ring is concerned), and also ended up (like Tom) with her own little territory.

Bombadil says he was around before the seas were 'bent' - the original blueprint of Arda, as it were, had it all very symmetrical indeed, it was the falling of the Lamps that made things 'crooked', so it's reasonable to assume Tom was there before the Lamps fell. Possibly long before - so the Music theory really gels for me.

Cheers, really enjoying this discussion. Might do a re-read myself.

[Cogidubnus]

Strange encounter

I'm not sure Bombadil is meant to be fully understood...I think he's the "first" in that he's there close to the beginning, and his total love for, and faith in, his lady predates any other attachment...he's essentially the male part of the life force, and his lady is the female...beginning and end...

[Ausgirl]

Tolkien did mention Tom as something that wasn't meant to be fully understood, but then.. he has Tom himself drop little hints about his history that, in my opinion, are pretty hard to ignore. I find it difficult to believe Tolkien, who was so anal about details, would include those to no real purpose.

Speaking of Tom's lady.. I have often wondered if there's some of link between Goldberry and Nienor, and that whole tragedy with Turin. Nienor's body was never recovered.. and there's a deliberate question of where she ended up, where the river had had eventually taken her. Plus, Goldberry pretty much fits the description of Nienor, tall and golden-haired, etc. And Neinor *could* be classed as a "River-maiden", seeing as she threw herself into one.

The Old Forest is pretty far from Doriath, though.

[Pcdunn]

I'd call myself more of a devoted Tolkien fan, than any kind of scholar or "geek", but I have been reading him for years. I spent a summer or two reading "The Hobbit" and the Lord of the Rings books, all before I was out of high school in the early Seventies.
I've also read a biography of Tolkien, many of his other works, a collection of his letters, and the Silmarrilion (well, most of it... It's like reading the Old Testament and L'Morte d' Arthur at the same time, lol.!)

Any fans of Farmer Ham (is that right? We old Boomers have memory problems nowadays...)

[Ausgirl]

Farmer Giles of Ham? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer_Giles_of_Ham

If so, then I've not read it yet! Shame on me.

[Pcdunn]

Farmer Giles of Ham? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmer_Giles_of_Ham

If so, then I've not read it yet! Shame on me.

Yes, that is it... And you should read it.

[martin wilson]

Hi ausgirl and the rest of the Inklings.


I was just reading the destruction of the two trees again and because of your Ungoliant insight I arrived at the same conclusion! that Melkor has no power over her, odd if she is simply a corrupted Maiar
I think Tolkien was being a bit playful when he said Tom was not meant to be understood, I read somewhere that if his editor pointed out an inconsistency, rather than simply correct it he would spend an age wondering how the character could have made a mistake!
Interesting idea about Goldberry/Neinor, it may tie in with another theory that the Hobbits were dead in the barrow and Tom restored life to them. I'm not convinced that he did, but then he has power over the creations of Yavanna, the Trees, so dunno on that one.
All the best.

[martin wilson]

Hi Pcdunn.

I have the same trouble with The Silmarrillion, by the time I have read the familial relationships and got hopelessly lost in middle earth wondering where everything is, I have to stop as my brain has started revolving in my skull.

All the best.

[martin wilson]

The Silmarillion is the book that gets Tolkien fans a bit misty eyed though.
It's such a beautiful idea, that the world was created through music, and may help any Tolkien newbies who wonder why the characters in LOTR keep singing all the time!

All the best.

[Abby Normal]

total Tolkien geek here. Only other online forum I belong to is theonering.net forum. Loved the books( and the movies). silmarillion is the bible for middle earth.

I was horrified when I heard about the whole Tauriel thing and about handsome dwarves, possible romance between Kili and Tauriel. etc. But when I saw the movies, I actually like it and thought it was beautifully done (eventhough not part of the Tolkien cannon). Tauriel ended up being one of my favorite characters of the TH movies.

[martin wilson]

Hi Abby

I thought Evangeline Lilly was excellent, and she has the most Tolkien sounding name.
Nevertheless, she feels like notes 'There's no love interest in this one Peter' but then I blame Titanic.

All the best.

[Ausgirl]

I never pictured dwarves as being totally ugly.. Richard Armitage was not too far left of what I imagined a noble dwarf to look like, and was perfect for the films.

Good to see more LotR fans surfacing.

Martin, there's a few hints in Fellowship of the Ring which might support the idea that both Goldberry and Tom originally came from somewhere else. As to the music theory - them hobbitses didn't break into song the whole time, for nothing, hehehe.

I kind of doubt the Nienor theory on several levels, myself. After all.. she was pretty much 100% mortal (though from a pretty hardcore line with major elvish connections). But then.. she begged the waters to take her to the sea, presumably both wanting to die and be relieved of her shame and grief (and that curse..). Maybe it's just too sad to imagine her dead, but I can kind of see how maybe a Vala (or hey, her Maia foster-mother-in-law..) might step in to fix what Melkor had broken, as best they could.. putting her in the path of Tom's wanderings, perhaps.

Ohh annd, in Beleriand, there was Nan-tathren/Tasarinen, Land of the Willows, right smack in the path of the Sirion river as it runs from Nienor's ravine down to the sea - coincidence? This is also the place Galadriel kind-of prophesises that she and Celeborn will meet up with Treebeard again, once Beleriand rises from the sea. I'm pretty sure Treebeard carps on about wandering there in the distant past, to the hobbits. So.. she could have washed down there, become some kind of willow-spirit (and her unborn daughter, with her..), and then... got hustled over to the Old Forest when Beleriand sank? It's a stretch, I know. Sigh.

Jeez.. talk about waffling, sorry. Just one more idle Bombadil thought - it took me a long time to twig that Bombadil's most often used defensive magic appears to be singing things to sleep - the willow, Goldberry (who was actually a little bit malevolent, while she lived under the willow with her mum, I think), the wight, badgers... and the hobbits. Perhaps a remnant of his time as a bed-time dolly for Tolkien's kids.

[martin wilson]

Hi Ausgirl

I can read Tolkien theories all day, in fact I often do, so worry not about waffling, in any case, should there ever be a world waffling championship, little tip, put your mortgage on me.
I will have to brush up on the whole Bombadil episode to answer you properly, but I'm intrigued by your idea about Goldberry, in fact the Old Forest, Old Man Willow, the Barrow Wights, it's none too idyllic is it really?
It's a feeling more than considered thought that Tolkien is writing something fundamental to the nature of middle earth and of it's creation with that passage, but it's deliberately obscure.

All the best.

[martin wilson]

Hi Ausgirl.

I had forgotten how weird that part was, it's all music and mist, dreams and visions, of the past, the present, and ultimately more questions than answers, the road goes ever on with understanding it, but I think it's obvious that Tolkien has put a great honking neon arrow pointing to it 'This means something!'.
Absolutely the music of the Ainur, as it was first sung.
Re Nienor, ' She ran from him distraught with horror and anguish, and coming to the brink of Cabed-en-Aras she cast herself over, and was lost in the wild water.'

Tom 'By that pool long ago I found the River Daughter, fair young Goldberry sitting in the rushes, sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating!'

Could be literal, could be a metaphor, but it doesn't actually state that Nienor died.
All the best.