Ex-Auschwitz Guard, Now 93, Charged With 300,000 Counts of Accessory to Murder

[Harry D]

Like I said, plenty of despicable acts were carried out during the events of WW2 by both sides, and trying to quantify evil is very shaky ground indeed.

The Holocaust is big business. Gotta keep it in the social consciousness, not because of any lofty ideals about justice, but because it's being used to impose white guilt on Gentiles in order that we'll turn a blind eye on Israel's own acts of genocide. Stalin and the Jewish Bolsheviks wiped out millions of Ukrainian men, women and children through the engineered starvation of the Holodmor, however, this atrocity receives precious little media attention when compared to the Holocaust, and why's that? Because Joe was America's best friend and the Allies couldn't be seen to represent values of freedom and democracy when it was rubbing shoulders with its own genocidal tyrant.

Not a popular belief, I'm sure, but the truth seldom is.

[Robert]

Harry, Stalin was painted as a friend of America and Britain between the years 1941 - 1945. He most emphatically wasn't deemed a friend before this. In fact, it has often been claimed (with some justification, I feel) that the democracies went easy on Hitler during the 1930s because he was felt to be a useful ally against Communism.

And why call the Bolsheviks Jewish? Stalin wasn't Jewish, and Trotsky was in exile. Stalin killed all sorts. He was very fair, and didn't discriminate - he killed Jews too.

[Errata]

Errata, with respect I think your way of thinking is highly dangerous. Even immediately after the war, some Germans and Japanese were let off, because they had scientific or medical knowledge, or even simply because the USSR was by then the main threat. Not nice. Come to think of it, if a surgeon were to bump off his wife tomorrow, would we let him go because he is a 'valuable resource' as he his capable of saving lives?

That's on the utllitarian aspect. On the purely moral aspect, I have no problems with a survivor of these camps exacting vengeance, via the State, against someone who is guilty of murder.

Please don't bring in the Middle East and the various groups that the West has supported over the years, because I'm not going into that quicksand. I'm only interested in the Holocaust aspect.

He's not being charged with murder. He's being charged as an accessory to murder, which includes accessory after the fact. His job was to sort and catalog the belongings of prisoners and victims. He knew of the murders. He collected the luggage and valuables from the cattle cars as they came in. He witnessed. He said he committed no crime. Thats probably not true, but while he was as armed as every other Nazi in the camp, his job did not lend itself to killing people. He was a clerk. Which the prosecution agrees with.

"'He helped the Nazi regime benefit economically, and supported the systematic killings,' state prosecutors in the city of Hannover said in a statement."

He sorted the valuables so that they could be sold. He was a loyal Nazi. Neither of these are good things. But while I might heartily condemn his work in Auschwitz, there are people responsible for those murders. There are people who beat those prisoners, shot them, gassed them, tortured them. And those people were not clerks. Why go for the fence who took the stolen goods when you could go for the guy who murdered your loved ones and took those goods off their corpses? If this guy had been a guard, a technician, a camp commander, someone who was in charge of the prisoners and/or the murders, I could get behind this. But this man is not being accused of killing anyone. He's not even accused of helping to kill anyone. He's being accused of sorting out possessions to be sold to finance the camp. He wasn't even the one doing the selling. This I think begs pause.

I am well aware of the Great Nazi Scientist Draft of '45. And as an American Jew sometimes I'm a little torn on it. Wernher Von Braun was clearly a Nazi. He was very involved in the war effort. And if he committed war crimes, they were on the war side of things, not the internal side. Genocide is considered a war crime, but in the case of the Holocaust (and several other genocides) it was an internal matter. Nazi Germany hunted down it's own people, and the people in the countries they occupied. They were not targeting the Jews of enemy countries. Certainly they did not target British synagogues for example, which was a viable option for them. In Nazi Germany, there was the war, and there was the Holocaust. Two separate things linked by expanding geography. We can't charge every Nazi. A lot of people were Nazis. Some members of my own family were Nazis, so that makes things awkward for me. One of the most compassionate men in modern history was a good Nazi. It's complicated. So I am not a fan of the science smuggling. On the other hand, I recognize that the scientists who came here probably had nothing to do with genocide.

I have no intention of bringing in the Middle East, and I'm not sure why you would think I was going to bring it up, but I have to say it's rather telling that your thoughts immediately went there. I assume that this was in reference to my comments about the First World aiding genocide, and it's true that we have a lousy record. But I was only referring to the Holocaust.

[Roy Corduroy]

It said he was a clerk, counting money and possessions taken from the victims.

I read a book on this subject "Hitler's Beneficiaries" which described the system whereby the Holocaust, and all of the military conquests were used to fund the war. And also to keep German citizens placated to an extent. Because the Nazis were socialists. They had all sorts of things going, sort of early nanny state.

Anyway, it was very good book, and about half way through reading I realized I would have to re-think a lot of what I had read before.

Roy

[Robert]

"Nazi Germany hunted down it's own people, and the people in the countries they occupied. They were not targeting the Jews of enemy countries." This to me is a sheer contradiction.

No, my mention of the Middle East was due to two things :

1. The letting off of Nazi scientists in order to aid the struggle against Communism, juxtaposed with the somersaults the West has performed in the Middle East, arming one bunch of nutters in order to hit another bunch of nutters. Two examples of realpolitik, but I'm only interested in the former.

and

2. An off and on perusal of the comments section of newspapers like "The Guardian," which I think you'd have to read for yourself to get their full lunatic measure.

I'm not aware of any genocide in the Middle East. Actually I don't like the word 'genocide.' A murder is a murder is a murder.

I repeat that I am not talking about this particular man's case. That is sub judice and out of bounds.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Robert,

My Dad worked for the little known underground unit from London. He knew, he recalled, of the whole nazi plan about the Jews, and other groups right at the start of the war.

One day, when I was about 7, he called me into the living room where he was watching, "All our Yesterdays".. one of the last programmes in the long running series on ITV after "The Big Match" I recall? (perhaps just before?)

The programme was about the discovery of one or another of the concentration camps. Dad said... "just sit here and watch this"....

As I watched, I saw the grainy black and white film on the tv, and as I sat there watching, I noticed Dad reaching into into his pocket for his hanky.

When the programme finished he simply said...

"Son...never.....ever.... never ever forget this... and if you are ever in the situation where you can make a difference to stop things like this happening again... don't hestitate. Do it. Just never, ever forget it"

Many years later, my own eldest son was to travel from Norway to various concentration camps vis the famous "white buses" programme for 16 and 17 year olds, accompanied by 100 other youngsters of the same age, and their guide....a holocaust survivor.

All I told him before he traveled were the same words my father had told me. "Whatever you see...never...ever forget it... and if you can influence this not happening again... do it".

That was in 1998 he traveled there. He said that every youngster..hardest to softest..bully to weakling, girl and boy... cried their eyes out on that trip at least once.

He was chosen to lay a rememberance tribute on behalf of the whole party at Auschwitz. A short while later.. he was standing with the whole group as two or three Neo Nazis walked around the corner and started shouting abusive things at the whole group. My son was just about to...with a few others... run straight at them when the elderly man, the guide, just said... "No!... Don't give them the pleasure. Just remember... whilst you are strong... this will never happen again..hopefully. Just turn your backs."

And they did. And my son has never forgotten it either.

Things will happen all over the world in the name of different causes. Someone somewhere will say the immortal words... "Never forget this" in The Former Yugoslavia...in Syria, in Iraq perhaps... I don't know.

But what I do know is that ignoring what a 90 odd year old did 70 years is not correct. It isnt about revenge.. it is about never, ever forgetting. It may just help the future generations a little to show that THIS generation did not forgive and forget. Not The Holocaust.

And NO... my family is not Jewish nor ever has been.

I just say..."Thanks Dad" whenever I see anything like this. Schindlers List is my favourite film... and the ending always make me cry. I am not ashamed to say it either.

Stay well all.



Phil

[Harry D]

And why call the Bolsheviks Jewish? Stalin wasn't Jewish, and Trotsky was in exile. Stalin killed all sorts. He was very fair, and didn't discriminate - he killed Jews too.

Because Bolshevism was Jewish?

Obviously my remark about Uncle Joe being America's best friend was to be taken ironically, but the point remains that Stalin was on the winning side and therefore the crime of the Holodomor gets brushed under the carpet, when it was arguably even worse than what the Nazis carried out. Where is the voice for those poor people?

And the Nazis weren't too discriminatory, either. Slavs, Poles, Gypsies and even Germans themselves weren't spared by the Holocaust. It's no wonder people believe that the Jews have a monopoly on suffering when these victims are often overlooked.

[Robert]

Thanks for that, Phil. It's hard to find the words for these things, but you managed it.

I can't remember what age I was when I saw the images, but they sure made an impression on me.

Hope you and yours are well.

[Robert]

Harry, one reason that the Ukrainian famine hasn't had a tremendous amount of publicity, is that Stalin didn't let western journalists stand there with cameras filming it.

As for Bolshevism being Jewish : was Lenin Jewish? Most of Bolshevism was down to him.

But in any case, while I can understand the concept of Jewish art, or music or literature, the idea of a Jewish economic theory seems very strange. Was the theory of general relativity Jewish?

[Errata]

"Nazi Germany hunted down it's own people, and the people in the countries they occupied. They were not targeting the Jews of enemy countries."

Meaning that they certainly killed Jews in countries they invaded, but did not invade countries to kill Jews, nor did they make any attempts to kill Jews in countries they did not invade. The war and the genocide were two separate things. And the genocide only applied where the war was at least temporarily won. The war was for power, territory and money. The holocaust was for racial cleansing. Had the war been about racial cleansing, it would have looked a whole lot different, and they would have gone west and south, not east and north.

Genocide is a multifaceted crime that includes murder, but is not limited to murder. There also has to be a component of terrorism, and it cannot be for material gain. Take the Sudan for instance. Many many people have been killed there, but calling it genocide is a little fuzzy because no single group or ethnicity is being targeted. It is a massive civilian death toll, especially considering the size of the nation. But the civilians are killed because they are on the wrong side. And both sides are doing it, so it's a mess. We think of genocide as mass murder, because we think of the Holocaust when we think of genocide. But the reason the Sudan is genocide is not just because of the killing. It's also because of the rapes and torture, it's also because of the child soldiers. The goal is to destroy these people as a whole, so that no one will take arms against them. It's a kind of total war we aren't used to. Because they are terrorizing civilians, because they are killing them, putting them in camps, removing their ability to either fight back or escape by taking their children, systematically forcing family members to rape each other to ensure that women are so emotionally and physically traumatized that they cannot bear children... that is genocide. A population can be destroyed without murdering the population.

The Spanish inquisition destroyed the Spanish Sephardic Jewish community, no question. And yes, they killed many of them, but the majority either converted out of fear or fled. For hundreds of year after that there were no Spanish Jews. They were not all killed, but they were all destroyed by either becoming no longer Jewish, or no longer Spanish. Thats genocide too. Genocide has to destroy a part of the population, it has to directed by the ruling powers, it must be planned, and the general public has to be encouraged to participate in or support the actions taken. Whether that means death camps, forced abortions, child soldiers, etc. it's all genocide. That why cops don't deal in genocide. The UN does. It's national, if not global. It's not something we in the west deal with a lot. It's not a fear we experience. We got a taste of it for a day or two on Sept. 11, or in July of 2005, but just a taste. That feeling is 1000 times worse in a genocide.

A murder is a murder. And to the families of the victim that is a very personal crime. If genocide was just another name for murder on a massive scale, I would agree with you. But genocide is a social and political crime. It is personal to the victims, but is also an act of terrorism that it committed on a community at large. So really the best way to describe it would be to say that I had family members who were murdered AND were victims of a genocide.

[Robert]

Hi Errata

Well, you've explained what you meant, but I must say I'm not too happy about your leaving that quote at the top of your post, because it makes it look like I said it, when I was in fact quoting you.

Actually the Nazis did kill Jews from countries that they didn't invade - puppet states like Slovakia handed them over.

And in the unlikely event that there's some old 100-year-old who took part in the Ukrainian famine still alive, I'm happy for him to be toddled off down to the police station in handcuffs.

[GUT]

G'day Phil

So well put. I wish every dad/grandad would sit his kids down and tell them what your dad said:

"Son...never.....ever.... never ever forget this... and if you are ever in the situation where you can make a difference to stop things like this happening again... don't hestitate. Do it. Just never, ever forget it"

The only thing I'd add, is to all the world's atrocities, like those that have come since. And any war.

[Errata]

Hi Errata

Well, you've explained what you meant, but I must say I'm not too happy about your leaving that quote at the top of your post, because it makes it look like I said it, when I was in fact quoting you.

Actually the Nazis did kill Jews from countries that they didn't invade - puppet states like Slovakia handed them over.

And in the unlikely event that there's some old 100-year-old who took part in the Ukrainian famine still alive, I'm happy for him to be toddled off down to the police station in handcuffs.

Oh wow. Sorry about the quote thing. I'm not entirely sure why it truncated, but it was not my intent. Well, I meant to lop off the Middle East section since I wasn't replying to it. But the rest of it I meant to keep. Bad cutting and pasting on my part. Yes you were quoting me, and I apologize for any perception that I thought you said it... and that just got confusing. My bad. To sum up.

[Phil Carter]

G'day Phil

So well put. I wish every dad/grandad would sit his kids down and tell them what your dad said:

"Son...never.....ever.... never ever forget this... and if you are ever in the situation where you can make a difference to stop things like this happening again... don't hestitate. Do it. Just never, ever forget it"

The only thing I'd add, is to all the world's atrocities, like those that have come since. And any war.

Hello GUT, Robert too,

I am 56 soon. Dad died when I was 37 1/2 - to the day and hour- almost infact to the exact minute .
When I read his words so beautifully highlighted here and followed by such lovely compliments from you both- my eyes filled up,,,,

Thank you.

I am genuinely very touched by your kind words and lovely action.


all kindnesses

Phil

[GUT]

Hello GUT, Robert too,

I am 56 soon. Dad died when I was 37 1/2 - to the day and hour- almost infact to the exact minute .
When I read his words so beautifully highlighted here and followed by such lovely compliments from you both- my eyes filled up,,,,

Thank you.

I am genuinely very touched by your kind words and lovely action.


all kindnesses

Phil

G'day Phil

Bet you can't guess why I picked blue?

My family missed most of the war, my Paternal grandfather and his brother tried to enlist in WW I but were rejected as being of more use breaking horses than serving.

My Maternal Grandfather had little education but always told me, and it was only years later that I discovered he hadn't made it up, "All it takes for evil to occur is for good men to do nothing."