Bnp

[Robert]

Hi FM

Not quite sure what point you are making about the philosophers. Nietzsche was staunchly pro-Jewish, and Freud was Jewish. Heidegger apparently was a Nazi supporter (at least in the early days).

[Robert]

Errata, there is no definition of who is British, least of all a piece of paper with "I am British" stamped on it. There are places on the internet where people can purchase Lordships of Manors. Buying one of these doesn't make you a Lord. The question of nationhood is a matter of accepting and being accepted. If a people won't accept another people, then the other people is not of the same nation. They may have all the rights and duties that comes with being a citizen but they are not the same people. It's the same the other way round. If newcomers don't see themselves as part of the host nation, then they won't be part of it, however welcoming the host nation may be. Of course, with the passing of generations the descendants of people who were formerly not accepted may come to be accepted. It's an unpredictable process.

Every nation has quotas, including Israel. If it didn't, it would cease to exist, because Arabs would simply emigrate to Israel until they outnumbered the Jews, then vote to expel the Jews (or worse).

The Nazis didn't turn back the clock far enough. Best would have been a pre-1971 Germany of little states, before the creation of the superstate that has caused so much trouble in the world. I think it's no coincidence that the other fascist state that disturbed the peace of Europe (Italy) was also a new country formed from several older ones. I wish people would stop worshipping states.

[Fleetwood Mac]

"Give or take", my arse. My people, and the Scots, have fought and died for this "island nation" of ours as well.

I know. I just knew there'd be a Taff or a Jock knocking about who would take the bait.

I have a Scottish Grandmother but most of my ancestors are Cornish via Wales. I'm from the County Durham coalfields which was very sparsely populated until coal was mined and then heaving with Welsh, Irish, Cornish among others.

And, I'm fully aware of the part played by the Taffs and the Jocks in the history of Britain. I have no animosity toward either: it's just that I'm English not British.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm sure you are right, BUT do recognize that many of the same arguments as to why it would never happen in England were applied to why it would never happen in Jazz Age Germany.

Errata,

Stop at that point and consider the history of your own country and the history of Germany.

There are a multitude of reasons why it happened on continental Europe and why it would never happen in England, the United States, Australia or Canada.

One is the English Bill of Rights, and go back farther to forerunning ideas of liberty. The other, and the main factor, is geography.

Germany is a fascinating country. Read about it. Read about 'the land in the middle', and how it bore people inherently inward looking, and read about England and the United States: inherently outward looking, commercial nations with a large middle class.

You may find that the middle class in Germany didn't have the avenues that we did in England and it led to what they called: "High Kultur". It is absolutely no coincidence that Nietzsche, Freud, Heidegger and associates were Germans or near Germanic neighbours. It is a peculiar country with a peculiar history.

That is not to say that I believe Germans are somehow predisposed to genocide - that's not the case at all. But, they do have a certain geography which ultimately led to certain ideas.

[Sam Flynn]

Not to mention the Irish in WW1, the Northern Irish in WW2, and even some of the Southern Irish in WW2.

Indeed, Robert. I was just referring to the inhabitants of this island, not our brethren on the big island next door

[Robert]

Not to mention the Irish in WW1, the Northern Irish in WW2, and even some of the Southern Irish in WW2.

[Sam Flynn]

England is an island nation, give or take a few Scots and Welsh.

"Give or take", my arse. My people, and the Scots, have fought and died for this "island nation" of ours as well.

[Sam Flynn]

If you were living in Russia c 1900 and didn't like Marxism, you'd have been an old stick-in-the-mud. Marxism was new, it was exciting. Trouble is, it was also wrong.

Political theories are often well-intentioned and, at root, entirely sensible. It's how they're applied that matters.

[Errata]

Errata, would you like the idea of joining a United States of the Americas, with one government embracing the whole of North America, Central America and South America? Or do you want the USA to govern itself? it's a simple question.

I want my country to govern itself, and I will not vote for, or have anything to do with, any party or organization which seeks to undermine my country's independence.

People who disagree with me might label me xenophobic, exclusivist, old-fashioned, racist....I in my turn might label them communists, collaborators, naïve idiots, Quislings....but it's best to discuss these things without smears or innuendo.

The trouble with words like "extremist" is that they're relative. If you were living in Germany in the 1930s and wanted free speech and free elections, you'd have been called an extremist. If you were living in Russia c 1900 and didn't like Marxism, you'd have been an old stick-in-the-mud. Marxism was new, it was exciting. Trouble is, it was also wrong.

FYI: When I say "extremists" I mean those willing to kill for their beliefs.

I wouldn't be that invested in a union of Americas because I'm not a nationalist. But I get why there is no such thing as one size fits all government. It's why the Berlin wall was such a bad idea.

And it's fine to want your country to be independent. As an American I would be hypocritical to say otherwise, and I won't. I have zero problem with wanting out of the EU. But there is a difference between wanting and succeeding. And I can't speak for Britain, but we occasionally have states that want to secede. It never works. A single state doesn't have the resources to be self sufficient, which is really necessary for independence. If Britain can stand on it's own, then the British have the right to insist on that. Even if they can't they can insist on it. That is never the problem. The problem is when some people want to start deciding who is British and who isn't amongst their own citizenry. Enter the BNP and others like it.

Jazz age Germany actually had quite a bit of freedom. Both social and political. The Nazi defined the national character, and by doing that excluded other ideas that had crept in. They tried to turn back time. Tried to pretend outside influences never got in. But they did. And the representatives of those ideas fared badly. Britain is getting there now. A bunch of new ideas and new ways of being have come in. And some people want to dictate what is British and what is not. We have it happen here all the time. McCarthyism was a big one. Anytime someone wants to define what is British, you have to ask yourself what happens to those who don't make the cut?

A lot of people are pissed off at the Muslim influx into England. Bringing in foreign ways and refusing to assimilate. What some people don't seem to realize is that demanding change doesn't mean you get what you want. You can't make them want to fit in. You can make their way of life illegal, but all that does is piss people off. You can cut them off, but a lack of government assistance doesn't mean you stop paying for them in some way. You can deport them. Sometimes sending them home to be killed. But that's a slippery slope already well identified.

So the decision isn't "what do we want to do about these foreigners". Too specific, guaranteed to blow up. People have to decide what kind of country they want to live in. And if they want to live in a country where everyone is just like them... good luck with that. There's probably some unclaimed real estate in Antarctica. Who we want to be as nations should reflect who we want to be as people. I can't say that I want to be kind and giving and helpful, but then say I want my government to shut down the borders and not talk to anyone else.

Being independent as a nation means being independent as a people. And that means you can't tell other people that they need to be like you. The BNP doesn't get to define who is British. Nor does anyone. That definition already exists. Any citizen of Great Britain. And that's just the way it is. You can't turn back the clock. You can't define your society after the fact. You take what you have, all that you have, and move forward. And you can define forward, you just have to be careful. That's all I'm saying.

I remember having a conversation with dad, and I said "We fought the Nazis! We can't ever be the Nazis!" at which point he informed me about the government forced sterilization program he had to take part in, about immigration quotas, and about the propaganda that came out of the first Gulf war. And I said "but that's different" and he said "If you are one of the people targeted by any of these, how is it different?" And it wasn't. Because you don't have to feel like Nazi to get perilously close to being one. When I learned about it, I thought it was so clear, so black and white. It isn't. Never was. Because it was never about good and evil. It was about feeling safe.

[GUT]

G'day Errata

It can happen here, there, anywhere. Maybe not Canada. But anywhere else.

Can't see it happening "Down Under" either. But we have elected some idiots at times, just a different sort of idiot.

[Robert]

Errata, would you like the idea of joining a United States of the Americas, with one government embracing the whole of North America, Central America and South America? Or do you want the USA to govern itself? it's a simple question.

I want my country to govern itself, and I will not vote for, or have anything to do with, any party or organization which seeks to undermine my country's independence.

People who disagree with me might label me xenophobic, exclusivist, old-fashioned, racist....I in my turn might label them communists, collaborators, naïve idiots, Quislings....but it's best to discuss these things without smears or innuendo.

The trouble with words like "extremist" is that they're relative. If you were living in Germany in the 1930s and wanted free speech and free elections, you'd have been called an extremist. If you were living in Russia c 1900 and didn't like Marxism, you'd have been an old stick-in-the-mud. Marxism was new, it was exciting. Trouble is, it was also wrong.

[Errata]

There's absolutely no chance on this earth that the BNP could ever succeed here.

I'm sure you are right, BUT do recognize that many of the same arguments as to why it would never happen in England were applied to why it would never happen in Jazz Age Germany. And it did happen. Because people are hypocrites. Shout for freedom, vote for safety.

It is possible here. It has happened here. We have had Klansmen and other members of hate groups in very high office indeed. We were close to having a Klansman as the President of the United States, and despite his racist attitudes, he was a damn fine politician. We have had the entire nation under the politics of these people. It can be argued that we still do. We have the Tea Party. And while many Tea Party Members strongly deny that it is a racist movement, it's only because they're not actually listening to what their people have to say about blacks, Muslims and Jews. And even if it wasn't racist it's an isolationist and aggressive form of social darwinism, just like the Nazi Party.

It can happen again. It has happened again. It can happen anywhere. And the only way to make sure it doesn't is to be aware of that.

You Brits seem like nice people. I like you as a rule. But you do have a streak of exclusionism a mile wide, and that's a problem. I have noticed that the idea of social evolution in your country is considered bad. Evolution isn't necessarily better than the old way, just what is needed to survive. But historically, the most extreme groups are the ones who want to turn back the clock. Even if they identify themselves as moderate. For example many countries stay in the EU and retain a very personal identity. France for instance. If Britain cannot be in the EU and still be British, that's not necessarily a sign that the EU is contradictory to British identity. It may be that the British identity is no longer strong enough to withstand outside influence. And the solution to that isn't isolationism. It's forging a new identity.

Because whether we like it or not, and we never like it, we can't go back. You guys cannot be the Britain of WWII, of rationing, stiff upper lip, beef and pudding national machismo anymore. It's not what you are anymore. You guys are the 8th largest population of French people. You have tons of immigrants, different walks of life, different priorities. And they aren't going to change to oblige you. They never did, the Jewish ghettos of the 1880s being a perfect example. You aren't one voice any more. You are many. Something we had to get used to a few hundred years ago.

We aren't the greatest generation here anymore, nor are we the socially active accepting generation from the 60s anymore. And I don't like it. I don't like hippies, but I'm a fan of social acceptance. And I don't live in the world I lived in even in 1999. But it's not going back. Not anytime soon. So if I am the the minority voice of America, which I wasn't in high school, I have to accept that. I have to accept that my politics and my opinions are not going to be represented anytime soon. And that's okay. Because at some point it will swing back again and my definition of America will be true again. It's when people don't accept it that moderates become violent. And we are both stubborn nations. It can happen here, there, anywhere. Maybe not Canada. But anywhere else.

[Fleetwood Mac]

How widespread? Well, people don't elect them into a single seat of Parliament, so they're hardly flavour of the month.

It's just not our heritage. The real danger in this country is the left, and what generally are European ideas (primarily French) have seeped into this country because they're just across the water. And the left are a very dangerous group of people who would have you believe they're holier than thou but disagree with them and turn your back and they'd have your head lopped off if they thought they could get away with it.

The left are very unEnglish, as are the extreme right. At heart, we're a moderate nation consumed with enterprise and individual liberty, which is why at least 80% of us want out of the European Union: it's an unEnglish, undemocratic gravy train intent in making us all 'equal', except we don't want to be equal: we know we have something good here worth hanging onto.

There's absolutely no chance on this earth that the BNP could ever succeed here.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Errata,

If you understood the history of this country, and I'm not saying you should do considering you're American, you would understand that it's not possible; in the same way it's not possible in the US.

England is an island nation, give or take a few Scots and Welsh, which means we haven't had centuries of a threat of an invading army marauding across our borders; which means our politics has developed in an entirely different way to say Germany or France.

Extreme politics has never prospered here in the way that it has in Germany and France, and never will do.

[Errata]

With all due respects Errata , I think your worries would be better directed towards your own back yard .. The Hypocrisy, injustice and prejudice that is stomping it's big black boot on the freedom of speech all across the glorious USA is deplorable , constitutional rights are evaporating in the melting pot that has become ridicules political correctness , Starting to sound like the origins of Nazi Germany yet ? Tie that together with one powerful country trying to control the whole world , and I would be more fearful of your back yard than mine ..having said that we both have Shite in our back yards

moonbegger

I am perfectly capable of worrying about both. My concern was not that England was somehow worse than the US, although we do tend to keep our racist bullshit out of elected office. My concern was that if the US goes to hell, where am I going to run to? It had been England, but if England starts racial cleansing, I'm going to need a back up plan.

I actually have faith that US is going to turn it around in another 20 years. We have very predictable cycles. England I don't know about, but I gotta say this is the first time I've heard a call for racial cleansing from you guys (you guys loosely. Not you particularly). I mean, I hear it here all the time. I live in the birthplace of the KKK. But everyone rolls their eyes and moves on. So I know what power white supremacists have here. I just don't know what power they have there. So I asked. It's not some accusation. Just wondering how widespread this white power thing in your neck of the woods.

But just don't let it happen. I mean, if these tea party whack jobs get real power, I still need a place to expatriate to. I can sing God Save The Queen and everything.