Private sale

[Fisherman]

Now we need an emoticon for extreme confusion! Unless you're suggesting that DSS did have Parkinson's disease and the death certificate is a fake. I suppose anything's possible once you divest yourself of the constraints of logic and honesty.

I have never suggested, Chris, that Swanson did have Parkinsons disease. I donīt think he did have that, or any other disease causing a hand tremor.

Thatīs why I donīt think that any handwriting of his would evince signs of such a disease. But still, Dr Davies said that handwriting by Swanson displayed treats that were there in "certain" neurological conditions, such as PD.

Itīs all very simple, thus - an elderly man with a more or less severe hand tremor cannot tie a Jock Scott.

Swanson had a hand tremor issue, if we are to believe Davies and Swanson himself in that 1923 letter.

Therefore, Swanson would not be a fly tier.

And if he WAS a fly tier, then he did not have a more or less severe hand tremor.

According to family tradition, Swanson WAS a fly tier, and a salmon fisherman.

The only explanation I can find to this problem is that he had a steady hand when it came to tying flies and a shaky one when it came to writing letters.

Itīs called selectiveness. Is there an emoticon for that?

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

You said it.

... aaand there it is, as predicted.

I was hoping for something a little more flamboyant, of course, or a bit more subtle. But we use what we have.

Fisherman

[Monty]

Nah, that was the title of the thread Neil - the true subject is altogether different.

You mean the subliminal accusation of forgery based on personal untrained opinion on a document which all of the accusers have never seen yet seem to be all knowing?

The only three people I know who have posted here and who have actually seen the Marginalia are Adam Wood, John Bennett and Stewart Evans. Out of those Adams integrity has been questioned, Johns sound words ignored and the rare insight which Stewart has kindly provided has been clumsily avoided by those very much aware of Stewart's gravitas on the matter (as well as in the field), showing an unwillingness to address his sound words.

Everything else is bluster.

Monty

[Chris]

Fisherman

?????????

You implied that someone with Parkinson's would have difficulty tying something called a "Jock Scott", and you seemed to be suggesting there was a problem there, because you assumed that DSS would have been able to tie a "Jock Scott".

What I'm saying is that you're worrying over nothing, because DSS didn't have Parkinson's. See what I mean? No problem.

[Chris]

I have never suggested, Chris, that Swanson did have Parkinsons disease. I donīt think he did have that, or any other disease causing a hand tremor.
...
Swanson had a hand tremor issue, if we are to believe Davies and Swanson himself in that 1923 letter.

And just to be clear, does that mean that you positively believe that not only the marginalia, but also the 1923 letter referring to DSS's hand shaking, are fakes?

[Fisherman]

Fisherman

?????????

You implied that someone with Parkinson's would have difficulty tying something called a "Jock Scott", and you seemed to be suggesting there was a problem there, because you assumed that DSS would have been able to tie a "Jock Scott".

What I'm saying is that you're worrying over nothing, because DSS didn't have Parkinson's. See what I mean? No problem.

On the contrary, Chris. Much as I see what you mean, we DO have problems. If Donald Swanson did NOT have Parkinsons - and we both agree that he did not - then why did Davies say that his handwriting evinced traits that were typical to "certain" neurological conditions, such as Parkinsonianism? That is a problem.

It is also a problem that regardless whether Swanson did not suffer from PD, he obviously suffered from shaky hands. And STILL, he was able to tie salmon flies. Once again, look at how the Jock Scott is performed. Notice how the tyer (and that guy is a renowned fly-tier) has problems with the tweezers, how he has to adjust very small bits and pieces etcetera ...

Is that something a man with shaky hands would be able to do?

Or are we to accept that he enjoyed the kind of selectivism that I mentioned in my former post; the same hands that started to shake when writing leters, steadied themselves as he gripped his pair of tweezers and the fly tying material?

Problems, Chris - problems!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

And just to be clear, does that mean that you positively believe that not only the marginalia, but also the 1923 letter referring to DSS's hand shaking, are fakes?

Just to be VERY clear, it positively means that I am not positively certain that either the marginalia (or parts of it) OR the 1923 letter are genuine.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Chris]

Just to be VERY clear, it positively means that I am not positively certain that either the marginalia (or parts of it) OR the 1923 letter are genuine.

So when you said you didn't think DSS had any disease causing tremor, did you mean you don't know whether he did or not?

[Nemo]

Hi Fisherman

I'd bow to your superior knowledge in regard to fly tying

I don't tie flies myself but I've observed many old men carrying out the task

When I was a child I used to collect feathers and fox and squirrel tails and sell them for fly tying

However, sticking to the subject of Donald Swanson, I was pointing out that him fly tying does not necessarily indicate he had a steady hand in regard to writing the letters

He himself indicates that his hand only tremored intermittently and we don't know at what speed he worked when fly tying, or, as you indicated, how good the end result was

Certainly a steady hand is desirable, but not absolutely necessary in my opinion, depending on the degree of shaking

I agree that someone with advanced Parkinson's disease would have difficulty doing it

[Chris]

Oh - and I'm not going to comment in detail on your other post, but I will just "remind" you yet again of what Dr Davies actually said:
"The [endpaper notes] show evidence of occasional tremor which is similar to that sometimes found in the writing of individuals with certain neurological conditions, such as Parkinson's."

The word "occasional" may help you with your problems.

[Fisherman]

So when you said you didn't think DSS had any disease causing tremor, did you mean you don't know whether he did or not?

I mean that none of us know, Chris. How could we know? I see a discrepancy in the material we are looking at it, and I find that there seems to be a fault involved. Either he was steady enough to tie flies, in which case the shaky hand letter is strange, as is the Davies verdict. Or he could not tie flies, in which case that information is wrong.

Maybe he simply tied disastrous flies, dabbling in an art he should have left years ago.

No matter what, thereīs no knowing. Just unanswered questions.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Oh - and I'm not going to comment in detail on your other post, but I will just "remind" you yet again of what Dr Davies actually said:
"The [endpaper notes] show evidence of occasional tremor which is similar to that sometimes found in the writing of individuals with certain neurological conditions, such as Parkinson's."

The word "occasional" may help you with your problems.

Parkinsonianism contains a problem with shaky upward strokes whereas the downward strokes are much less affected by the shakiness. Maybe that is why Davies speaks of "occasional" tremor.

The only other explanations at hand are that either

A/ Swanson trembled while writing parts of the 1923 letter, but not when writing other parts of it, or

B/ Davies recognized that on the occasion (sic) that Swanson wrote the 1923 letter he trembled, whereas Davies could not know if he did not do so otherwise, or

C/ Davies leant against Swansonīs own wording that his hands started to shake as he wrote.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Chris]

I mean that none of us know, Chris.

Well, maybe this is a language issue, but "I don't think X" on the lips of most native English speakers implies disbelief in X (even though in strict logic the words don't mean that).

If you say "I don't think X" when you mean "I don't know whether X or not", then people are liable to misunderstand you.

[Fisherman]

Nemo:

Hi Fisherman

Hi Nemo! Good to hear from you!

I'd bow to your superior knowledge in regard to fly tying

I don't tie flies myself but I've observed many old men carrying out the task

And was any one of them having a tremor problem?

When I was a child I used to collect feathers and fox and squirrel tails and sell them for fly tying

However, sticking to the subject of Donald Swanson, I was pointing out that him fly tying does not necessarily indicate he had a steady hand in regard to writing the letters

He himself indicates that his hand only tremored intermittently and we don't know at what speed he worked when fly tying, or, as you indicated, how good the end result was

Certainly a steady hand is desirable, but not absolutely necessary in my opinion, depending on the degree of shaking

I agree that someone with advanced Parkinson's disease would have difficulty doing it.

Of course the degree of shaking is a decisive factor! And if he enjoyed the luxury of having steady fly-tying hands but shaky writing ones, one must congratulate the man.

Very many factors may have played a role, though. One can, for instance, speculate that the angle of the hand or the hand power required to perform a certain task could have had an influence. Maybe such a thing could have produced occasional tremor. But how did Davies know that it WAS occasional? Is the text of the 1923 letter partly steady, partly tremor-affected? I donīt see that. Anybody who can tell would be welcome.

More information is what we need, And we donīt have that information. We can be very certain, though, that PD patients are no good fly-tyers! So what was it Davies based his assumption on about the certain group of diseases to which PD belongs? What was it he saw? Surely, that information should be available by asking the man?

All the best,
Fisherman

[Chris]

But how did Davies know that it WAS occasional?

Is this a trick question?