Private sale

[Chris]

You may want to read my next post too, Chris. Otherwise you may be the misleading part here. Parkinson´s, as well as other diseases, show typical traits that are discernible to a document examiner. I´ll be perfectly happy to provide further information to put this beyond doubt, if you insist that I mislead. Just let me know, and I´ll provide the material,

It's hardly a question of "putting it beyond doubt". You've posted no evidence whatsoever that a specific diagnosis of Parkinson's disease can be made through looking at people's handwriting.

And as I said, the statement you made about the article you copied and pasted was very misleading.

[Fisherman]

Here´s a little something for you, Chris. Three more extracts:

Early Symptoms
Learn to recognize the early warning signs of Parkinson’s Disease:
Tremor or Twitching: even slight uncontrollable shaking of hands, fingers, face or legs might be a sign of early Parkinson’s disease, especially if it occurs when you are relaxing or sleeping.
Feeling Stiff: If you feel a little bit like Frankenstein sometimes and you have trouble walking due to stiffness or pain in your shoulders or hips, it could be an early sign of rigidity caused by Parkinson’s disease.
Bad handwriting: A sudden change in your handwriting, such as smaller letters and words that are crowded together, can signal Parkinson’s disease.
Monotone voice: An early Parkinson’s disease is a change from your normal voice tone to a much softer and less expressive tone.
Dizzy spells: Feeling dizzy or fainting can be signs of low blood pressure and can be linked to Parkinson’s disease.

Unilateral tremor—usually in a hand—that is often more prominent at rest, coupled with a change in handwriting (micrographia, marked by smaller letters and a decline in legibility) in a person aged 55 years or older strongly suggests PD. The changes in handwriting are often present even when the tremor does not affect the patient's dominant hand. - See more at: http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/arti...agnosis#sthash.

Micrographia in Parkinson's Disease[
A common feature of Parkinson's disease (PD) is to have difficulty in routine activities due to lack of overall control of movement.[2] More specifically, patients have difficulty maintaining the scale of movements and have reduced amplitude of movement; also known as hypokinesia.[3] These difficulties with scaling and controlling the amplitude of movement cause patients with PD to have difficulty with complex, sequential movements.[4] This helps to explain why micrographia is a common sign and symptom of the disease.

Take the time to google the word "micrographia" and see what happens. There is a lot to learn about diseases and how they are coupled with typical traits in terms of handwriting. I hope, however, the examples I provide should be sufficient.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Fish,

This is interesting research, of course - and may well have an impact on documentary analysis in the future.

However, it was only published last month. Perhaps you can explain how you think Dr Davies came to be both aware of this research and trained to spot the specific signs of Parkinson's to which the research refers before the results of the study were released?

Thanks in advance

Oh, Sally - the experiment quoted only confirmed what has been known for a the longest time. I´ve just adviced Chris to google the word micrographia, and you may just as well do the exact same. It will take you way, way back. Promise.

Still, nice try!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

I´m sure that if Dr Davies was told that he was an idiot for claiming that Parkinsons could be suggested by means of document examination, he´d have a thing or two to add to this somewhat confused discussion...

The best,
Fisherman

[Chris]

Fisherman

You don't seem to have understood the difficulty with this stuff you're copying and pasting from the Internet.

It's no good saying something is a "common feature" of Parkinson's, or that something "might be a sign" of Parkinson's. Because if it is also a feature of another condition, or might be a sign of another condition, it obviously won't allow Parkinson's to be diagnosed.

The closest you get with your latest attempt is that "Unilateral tremor—usually in a hand—that is often more prominent at rest" coupled with a change in handwriting "strongly suggests" Parkinson's. But how on earth could Dr Davies have known from the handwriting whether the tremor was unilateral, let alone whether it was more prominent at rest?

I'm sorry, but it really is a waste of time to argue in this way. The only reason Parkinsonism has been raised is that Dr Davies mentioned it as a possibility, and obviously he did not feel he could be specific, or he would have said so. You aren't going to be able to get around that difficulty, whatever you say.

[Chris]

I´m sure that if Dr Davies was told that he was an idiot for claiming that Parkinsons could be suggested by means of document examination, he´d have a thing or two to add to this somewhat confused discussion...

This is a quite deliberate misrepresentation. You know perfectly well no one is disputing that Parkinson's "could be suggested".

[Fisherman]

Chris!

There are around fifty diseases in the Parkinson´s cluster. People with these diseases will normally have their handwriting afflicted in a manner that is easily recognizable to the forensic document examiner.

This is from "Neurological Disease and Handwriting" (Caligiuri & Mohammed, CRC Press, Taylor and Francis group), speaking about a Parkinsons patient and his handwriting - and how it is typical for Parkinsons disease. You may notice that the writer says, for example, "the signatures were micrographic and resembled parkinsonism", clearly telling us that "parkinsonism" to the document examiner represents a typical handwriting impairment.

Qualitative analysis of the patients handwriting revealed changes over a 2-year period that paralleled the progression of the neurodegeneration. Micrographia early in the course of the disease progression was consistent witn an initial diagnosis of PD. Furthermore, the beneficial effects of dopamine replacement therapy on handwriting ... were consistent with PD. ... The signatures obtained over a 2-year period from the patient reflect an atypical progression of PSP. Once the disease began to impact handwriting, the signatures were micrographic and resembled parkinsonism. Signatures obtained from the patient on and off dopamine replacement therapy are consistent with a distinct parkinsonian phenotype in PSP.

After this, the author goes on to point out the typical handwriting traits of Huntingtons disease and Alzheimers ditto. These diseases too set off traits that the document examiner will recognize.

I am not very interested in how you try to veil all these simple facts in a cloud of smoke. The fact remains that document examiners know exactly what to look for when trying to establish that a letter-writer has Parkinsons disease, and that was the one and only thing that was under discussion here. It was, as far as I understand, claimed that it was a lie that different diseases manifested themselves in different manners, readily legible, in written documents.

This is not so.

Whether the marginalia handwriting firmly establishes that Swanson suffered from PD or not is a question I have never touched upon. That is immaterial to the point I am making - different diseases have different, typical traits that allow a document examiner to suggest to draw the conclusion that the writer he is examining may suffer from specific diseases.

That, I should think, will effectively put this particular discussion to rest. If you are discussing whether the marginalia proves PD on Swanson´s behalf or not, then you have missed the whole point and you will be the sole participant in that particular discussion.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Rob Clack]

Rob, as one of the message board posters for whom I have the greatest respect, and whose work I greatly admire, I am reluctant to disagree with you.

However, in this instance, in my opinion, 'Kosminski' (and not Pizer) would be the natural choice for anyone wishing to credibly use the name of a police Polish Jew suspect. The name 'Kosminski' had been in the public domain since 1965 (Odell) when it was given as the name of the Police (Macnaghten) suspect Polish Jew, the description of whom fitted Anderson's Polish Jew.

I hasten to add that this is a post in the spirit of giving my own assessment of the facts and not in any way suggesting that the name written at the end of the annotations is faked or suspect.

Hi Stewart,

I was basing my opinion on Don's book being heavily influential and that somebody in the 1970s and 1980s would surely have read his book. And then used his opinion at the time that Anderson's suspect was Pizer.

I was also trying to get across the lack of knowledge shown by the Anti marginallia group and that a more through knowledge is needed.

Hope all is well with you.

Rob

[Chris]

Fisherman

Are you even reading my posts?

Twice I have pointed out to you that the problem with this stuff you are copying and pasting is that it does not say the observed features are specific to Parkinson's. If they could be caused by other conditions as well, then they are obviously not sufficient for a specific diagnosis of Parkinsonism.

And now you come back with some more copy-and-paste stuff that speaks only of a feature being consistent with Parkinson's. And what is more, it's talking about a feature - micrographia - that was not even observed by Dr Davies!

Anyway, as I say, even if you could produce any evidence for an ability to diagnose Parkinsonism specifically from tremor in handwriting, you would have wasted your time. Because Dr Davies did not make such a diagnosis. He simply said:
"The [endpaper notes] show evidence of occasional tremor which is similar to that sometimes found in the writing of individuals with certain neurological conditions, such as Parkinson's"
[my emphasis]

[Lechmere]

The point is that in his first report Dr Davis said:

‘In particular the Set 2 entries show evidence of occasional tremor which is similar to that sometimes found in the writing of individuals with certain neurological conditions such as Parkinsonism.’

If you read both his reports – as I have countless times - the only specific explanation he gives for the tremor he detected in the handwriting was ‘certain neurological conditions such as Parkinsonism’.
He used modifiers – similar to and such as – as careful people do in such circumstances. I use modifiers all the time.
Nevertheless it is surely of some significance that Dr Davis chose to select ‘certain neurological conditions such as Parkinsonism’ rather than anything else. How and why he came to that conclusion I do not know. But that is what he said.
My assumption is that Dr Davis will have had experience in examining the handwriting of people suffering from Parkinsonism as otherwise it seems to be an extraordinary thing to pluck out of thin air.
I think that is a fair assumption and it is backed up by what Fisherman has found.

So once again the virulent quick on the draw merchants are undone.

Cog
I have read Dr Davis’ report many times.
Can you point out what I have missed and the tosh.

My dear Monty
If you recall our ‘discussion’ was about Parkinsons and Parkinsonism.
Ally’s case is that DS Swanson wasn’t suffering from either.
So you haven’t been there before. Not with me anyway. And surely you aren’t such a tart as to have been there with someone else?

Rob
If you were trying to illustrate a lack of knowledge by the 'anti marginalia group' the you failed.

[Ally]

So what you are saying here is that Davies can not only tell if a document was written by somebody with Parkinson´s disease - he could actually nail if somebody was affected by something that was NOT Parkinson´s but still pretty damn close to it. So close, in fact, as to cause a similarity with the result that one would expect from somebody with Parkinson´s disease, but not similar enough not to give away that some other factor was what caused the particular tremor.

No what I am saying is the very idea is freaking stupid. If you are given 40 parkinson only patients and 40 people with no tremor, I guarantee a lay person will have the EXACT same success identifying Parkinson's from the non-Parkinson's hand-writing. If you put in Parkinson's patient, palsy patient, Tremor-etiology unspecified, tremor from low blood sugar, tremor from brain tumor patients and asked a handwriting analyst to tell you what condition each person suffers from, they will have no more success than the average man, meaning they are going to guess and be right about whatever percent of the time random guessing produces accurate information.

And after ascribing to this almighty faith in Davies capability to tell apart different types of tremor, you still say that it´s an outright lie to claim that a document specialist can reveal what underlying disease or ailment causes a certain type of shaky text?

Seriously, did you actually even READ my posts? I am the one saying it's entirely completely UNLIKELY. I put that post up because Lechmere was saying that he went by exactly what Davis said in his report. Which LECHMERE DOES NOT DO. Davis did not claim that the shaking was like Parkinson's he said it was similar to someone suffering -- meaning Davis was going out his way to NOT MAKE A DIAGNOSIS.

Jeezus.

No matter how you reached this conclusion, here´s a snippet from the net, just for you:

[I]Handwriting assessment can be used for early detection of Parkinson’s disease By JUDY SIEGEL-ITZKOVICH
09/10/2013 23:13

Recent studies have found distinct differences between the handwriting of patients with Parkinson’s disease and that of healthy people.

No ****, Parkinson's handwriting and normal handwriting aren't the same?

Really and did that article account for people who had tumors and were incorrectly diagnosed with Parkinson's based and who in fact had other issues? Oh no wait it didn't. They just used people they already knew to have Parkinson's and healthy people. No other tremor causing diseases included in that study which basically makes it irrelevant to my point.

Recent studies, however, have found distinct differences between the handwriting of patients with Parkinson’s disease and that of healthy people.

Once again, Parkinson's and healthy people. That's not what is being argued. That study tells absolutely nothing about whether a doctor can tell if your Tremor is caused by Parkinson's or something else, that's why they say Doctors have to do all these other scans to tell you whether you have Parkinson's! Because you can't tell, based off a tremor! Or handwriting. They did not included people suffering from other illnesses to actually do a comparison. Where's all the other categories of tremors?

Therefore, testing cognitive impairment, as was done in this study, might hint at the presence of the disease and offer a way to diagnose it earlier.

Keyword there is: might hint. As in sure if you get a handwriting doc to look at your handwriting and he sees deterioration you might have Parkinson's. You might have one of the other 30 different neurological conditions that cause shaky hands.

T half healthy and half known to be in the early stages of Parkinson’s disease, before a deterioration of motor skills was apparent – participated.

So a totally biased sample then?

Analysis of the results showed significant differences between the patients with Parkinson’s and the healthy group. The diagnosis was correct (at 97.5 percent accuracy) for all subjects except one.

Interesting. So they have an extremely smallgroup they are experimenting on to begin with -40- and yet, here's one who didn't match. Wonder why they didn't give results for that one? Could one of their healthy people have been showed to have Parkinson's and in fact did not suffer from it?

So what can we learn - if we wish to ... - from this? Yes, that´s it: Parkinson´s disease is a disease that produces changes in a person´s handwriting that are typical for this exact disease. It´reveals itself in a number of things, writing smaller letters, using smaller pressure etcetera.

No that's actually NOT what we learned. We learned that if you already know someone has Parkinson's and you test them against healthy people, you can tell who has Parkinson's. Nowhere did they say it was typical for this exact disease because they did not include ANY OTHER diseases in their control sample.

How hard is basic science to understand?

In conclusion, document specialists are able to reveal what kind of impact different diseases have on handwriting - at least to some degree.

No they aren't. The article didn't state that and no where did it say anythign about document specialists. NOt even in that article. A COMPUTER analyzed their movements and their time it took them to write something, not a person.

So once again, taking facts, and twisting them into something they did not actually say.

Oh and back to Davis == he said he saw evidence of a tremor. Interesting that none of your "samples" discuss shakiness at all in Parkinson's patients handwriting. They talk about changes in timing and evidence of smaller and more crowded letters. Whatever does that mean? Do you think?

[Rob Clack]

Rob
If you were trying to illustrate a lack of knowledge by the 'anti marginalia group' the you failed.

That's debatable. A bit more than is the marginallia genuine.

Rob

[Fisherman]

Chris:

Fisherman

Are you even reading my posts?

Sadly, yes. One would think I´d got better things to do.

How about you, do you read MY posts? No, you don´t. If you had, you would by now be aware that I am making a point of the fact that certain diseases have certain typical traits, and that some of these traits are discernible in handwriting.


...even if you could produce any evidence for an ability to diagnose Parkinsonism specifically from tremor in handwriting, you would have wasted your time.

You let me worry about how I spend my time, Chris. Some of it was spent picking up on the fact that PD patients who write while under the influence of a tremor, will normally not have that tremor set off in the downward strokes of the pencil, whereas the upward strokes will readily give away the tremor. So there you are, even the tremor as such acts in a manner that is specific when you have PD. Reasonably, that was what Davies saw.

Dr Davies did not make such a diagnosis.

I know that, Chris. But he DID say that the text gave away an impression of having been written by somebody with PD. Well, he did not phrase it exactly like that, but it was nevertheless what he meant.

Ever tried tying a Silver Doctor, Chris, by the way? Or a Jock Scott. Classical salmon flies, those. And so very much harder to tie than today´s flies, which are normally simple patterns. Admittedly, even todays flies call for a set of safe and controllable fingers - but compared to tying a Jock Scott, they are a piece of cake.

The best,
Fisherman

PS. Don´t get me wrong once more. What I´m saying is in the text; all of it.

[Chris]

I know that, Chris. But he DID say that the text gave away an impression of having been written by somebody with PD. Well, he did not phrase it exactly like that, but it was nevertheless what he meant.

And isn't that absolutely typical of the utter nonsense that this thread has been filled with?

What a waste of time.

[Fisherman]

Hi Ally!

You take the discussion to new heights of charm and politeness, as usual.

All my answers to you are in the posts I´ve made - before and after your greeting.

Fisherman