Private sale

[Rubyretro]

But Chris, it was still not there in 1981, and I will once again post just the exact same evidence from Ripperologist :

"The letter wasn’t glued in place when Charles Nevin visited Jim in October 1987 while preparing the ( )
nor when Martin Fido saw the book shortly afterwards"

Please argue with Adam or Martin or whoever if you're not happy.

Do you think this isn't true ? Tell us.

I don't have any issue with the veracity of the facts in the article ( maybe I should have ? Maybe I'm naiive ?).

I only have an issue with the interpretation. Am I not allowed to ?

Why am I not allowed to have independant thought here ?

Am I totally dim ?(I predict that there will be a rush to answer that -don't imagine that you're being clever).

If I were dim, then I might still expect intelligent answers to my questions to explain things to me simply ( unless you are a dickhead). No one so far can explain the glued in letter and the date confusion.

Chris -your willfull obscuring of the problem only makes me think of you in brackets.
.

[Chris]

Chris -your willfull obscuring of the problem only makes me think of you in brackets.
.

For heaven's sake, Ruby, I have just been trying to get you to explain whether what you said about 1981 was based on what Adam wrote about 1987, or whether there was some other evidence?

What on earth would have been so hard about saying "It was based on what Adam wrote"?

[Jenni Shelden]

88. I can't possibly disagree with Adam. It would be as rare for someone of that age to use email as for someone to be able to forge someone elses handwriting. Very very rare -not impossible. Anyone would be dubious.

Hi Ruby,
I find your comment, added with those on the subject proceededing it to be extremely ageist.

Try substituting the word age for gender to see what I mean.

Jenni

[AdamNeilWood]

Hello Adam,

Does this mean that the "Fred" inscription was NOT glued over?

That would mean that said "over-glueing and pasting" was done... after when...earliest possible date?

Was it pasted in there when Stewart Evans saw it?

Thank you for the reply.

Phil

Phil,

According to their recollections, in October 1987, Charles Nevin and Martin Fido visited Jim and both say the letter wasn't pasted in. Martin was able to read the inscription normally and debate who 'Fred' was with Don Rumbelow.

Stewart and Keith visited Jim in July 2000, when they saw the letter pasted on the first page.

They didn't notice the 1905 date on the letter until the book was loaned to the Crime Museum in 2006, which was when Keith realised the significance and took the photo of the inscription through the reverse of the page. I believe Chris also saw the inscription around this time.

[Chris]

During research for my article the question was asked of Martin Fido, who said:

"The inscription was definitely NOT concealed when I saw the book [in October 1987]. Don [Rumbelow] and I, I think, mulled over the possibility that it might have been Abberline."

Thanks for posting this. If it was based on a positive memory of having seen the unconcealed inscription from 'Fred' in 1987, then it is obviously more likely to be correct than if it had been based on the absence of a memory that the letter was glued in.

[Jenni Shelden]

Quote:
There are a hundred different reasons one can have a hand tremor.

Ok Ally -do a list

.

Maybe Ally's busy, but I can help,
and I am in no way making a diagnosis of anyone, but I think your retort a little off so,

here's a little bit of a list to start:-
genetics
Parkinsons
overactive thyroid
kidney disease
liver disease
caffiene
drug misuse
alcoholism
alcohol withdrawal
MS
stimulants
brain tumor
bran lesion
Stroke
damage to the nervous system..

I'll let Ally finish the list
Jenni

[Chris]

I believe Chris also saw the inscription around this time.

Yes - Alan McCormick pointed it out to me.

[Ally]

[QUOTE=Rubyretro;276454]

I don't -but that's what the Expert said -something like Parkinsonians. I also think that I would just go away from the writing, rest, and come back without comment if I had a transient problem with writing. The shaky writing is something else, isn't it ?

The expert was not a medical expert. He was a handwriting analyst who said that the handwriting showed shakiness, possibly to something LIKE parkinsons. Do you really think shaky handwriting is sufficient to diagnose Parkinson's. Get real! Davies was in no way claiming that Swanson had parkinson's. He was stating he had evidence of a tremor and gave a possibility. Do you really think Davies was attempting to make an ACTUAL medical diagnosis?

Ok Ally -do a list.

I see Jen has started one, I'll read what she has and come back to you.

[Phil Carter]

Phil,

According to their recollections, in October 1987, Charles Nevin and Martin Fido visited Jim and both say the letter wasn't pasted in. Martin was able to read the inscription normally and debate who 'Fred' was with Don Rumbelow.

Stewart and Keith visited Jim in July 2000, when they saw the letter pasted on the first page.

They didn't notice the 1905 date on the letter until the book was loaned to the Crime Museum in 2006, which was when Keith realised the significance and took the photo of the inscription through the reverse of the page. I believe Chris also saw the inscription around this time.

Hello Adam,

Once again, thank you for the reply.

So, at some time between 1987 (Martin Fido and others) and 2000 (Stewart Evans and Keith Skinner) the said piece of paper had been pasted into the book.
These are simple questions.

1. Why do it anyway?
2. For what possible purpose?
3. For what gain?

I will not assume, but I will say, that seemingly, and I put that word tentatively, it was for the purpose of promoting the date itself.. because the contents of the letter mean nothing, at least nothing in relation to the authenticity of the book or the marginalia itself..but consider the comments made by Jim Swanson previously when talking to the press of the time of the writing in said book, and his mentioning of dates.....

Pasting a letter dated 1905, has become, seemingly, that word again... a bit of a balls-up.

Seemingly.

I will not assume this to be a fact.. but someone might want to come forward and tell us if this is correct or not?

After all... we all make mistakes and errors of judgement. That's allowed. Jim Swanson is allowed to make an error or two.

Trouble is, and I have to ask questions 4 and 5...not quite so simple to answer, perhaps.

4. Did anyone advise Jim Swanson to paste it in there?
5. Why do I see a comparison with the red line annotations here?

I REALLY AM trying to be unbiased. I hope you see that. But if we are ever going to get to the bottom of all this.. once and for all, then someone somewhere might like to lay a few cards down should they be holding them. The marginalia et al is a mess. And each small thing that is wrong or wonky just isn't being ironed out in straight form, no matter how much your splendid efforts to do so have brought us forward. There remains things that others see which create unease and doubt. The more doubt, the more unease. The more unease, the more reluctance to accept "all-in".

That's natural, isn't it?


Phil

[Ally]

.

Maybe Ally's busy, but I can help,
and I am in no way making a diagnosis of anyone, but I think your retort a little off so,

here's a little bit of a list to start:-
genetics
Parkinsons
overactive thyroid
kidney disease
liver disease
caffiene
drug misuse
alcoholism
alcohol withdrawal
MS
stimulants
brain tumor
bran lesion
Stroke
damage to the nervous system..

I'll let Ally finish the list
Jenni

And I would like to point people to the definition of Kinetic Tremor. Read it, and realize that fly fishing is not an impossibility, nor is it likely that it would show up in a photo.

I am getting ready to go off to lunch so I'll have to do this in stages, bear with me:

Basic fatigue
side effects from medications
Muscle fatigue
Muscle damage
Wilson's disease
Psuedotumor cerebri
Chiari-Malformation
Low blood pressure
low blood sugar
Mercury poisoning
Vitamin deficiency


And here's one everyone should have heard of:

BASIC WRITER'S CRAMP!

I'll be back later and finish it off.

[Rubyretro]

Hi Ruby,
I find your comment, added with those on the subject proceededing it to be extremely ageist.

Try substituting the word age for gender to see what I mean.

Jenni

I did. This is what I wrote : "It would be as rare for someone of that age to use email as for someone to be able to forge.."


But it IS rare for someone of aged 88 to use email, and not at all rare for a female to use email...I can't see what you mean ...?

[Monty]

I think some really need to get themselves an understanding of the period and how ex Police officers and their families collate information on past cases and glories.

Monty

[Robert]

Another reason for hand tremor : peas. Bloody peas. Especially when the plate is full of gravy and they plop in and splash your shirt.

Best mixed in with mashed potato and shovelled down that way.

[Phil Carter]

I think some really need to get themselves an understanding of the period and how ex Police officers and their families collate information on past cases and glories.

Monty

and to add to this...

How some people will do whatever they can to promote something, and to make it look as "great" as possible, WITHOUT forging. Proud, no doubt of his grandfather that Jim Swanson was... a basic human reaction. Not hard to understand either, if one has to look at things logically. Beyond some though, it seems. Called being over-eager...over zealous. A perfectly natural human explanation, infact.

Not sure where the pasting of a wrongly dated letter and red line addition helps there though. Especially after 1987.....and after 2000......

Do I here someone at the back shouting... "defacing.."? Not exactly helping the cause at the end of the day, was it? Especially under advisement...



Phil

[Rubyretro]

Do you really think shaky handwriting is sufficient to diagnose Parkinson's. Get real! Davies was in no way claiming that Swanson had parkinson's. He was stating he had evidence of a tremor and gave a possibility. Do you really think Davies was attempting to make an ACTUAL medical diagnosis?

I never have thought that. I thought, rather, that Jim might have had the problem ( whatever it was) when he added to the Marginalia -if he did.