Private sale

[Ally]

And when they put up it leads to a constant barrage of hostile exchanges. because the likes you and a handful of others are never going to concede that

1. The marginalia may not be totally authentic

Wrong. I personally have created threads and argued that the marginalia may not be totally authentic and I am still hostile in regards to weaselly underhanded attempts like this from people who are too pansy to just say what they mean, and instead want to rely on innuendo and nudge-nudge smearing of the parties involved because they are too slimy to just be forthright.

There's a thread on here called "There's Something Wrong with the Swanson Marginalia". MINE, that I created to discuss what I perceived as weaknesses in accepting its authenticity.

Once again you are attempting to create an "old mindset vs new thinking" war where a) there is no new thinking being displayed, and really what is being objected to is not the information, but the manner under which the conversation is being had.

However, those of us who are actually comfortable with holding alternate points of view don't feel the need to go around portraying ourselves as holy crusaders or martyrs, we raise our points, point out the flaws in the rationale as we find them and get on with it, without putting on the Jesus-crown and carrying around our own cross to pillory ourselves to.

[Chris]

Trevor

Are you incapable of answering Jenni's question? Or do you simply lack the courage to attack Dr Davies's integrity openly?

[Lechmere]

Chris
Before your indignation gets the better of you, if you wrote a book and asked your best mate, who was also a literary critic, to review it, then arguably that review would not be so valuable as one from someone who had never met you before in their life. Although your mate may have consciously tried to divorce your pre-existing relationship from his mind, and although he may be a literary critic of the highest professional standard and competence, there is a chance that sub-consciously he may have pulled his punches or been overly kind to you.
This would carry no implication for your friend’s professionalism, skill or competence, would it?

It is the same potentially with Dr Davis. That is not a potentially serious allegation.
Are you crystal clear about that?

Jenni
The tests may seem pretty fine to you – you are no expert.
I said earlier that if a reputable auction house decided the existing tests were satisfactory then then should be accepted. It is not for me to specifically suggest tests.

I can however point out obvious flaws in the process as things stand.

By Dr Davis being too close to principals (potentially) I do not mean to suggest he was related to them.
He conducted the second test in the owner’s house while accepting their hospitality – that could create too convivial an atmosphere.
Dr Davis is a document examiner for the Metropolitan Police and may I remind you that the Marginalia was kept at Scotland Yard for a number of years as an exhibit at the Metropolitan Police’s private Crime Museum. There was a lot of press coverage about the significance of the Marginalia being temporarily donated to the Crime Museum in 2006. I believe the Metropolitan Police website used to (probably still does) lists Kosminski as a major suspect largely based on the basis of the ‘Marginalia’.

In Dr Davis’s first report he raised a question over the differences in the handwriting. Some, presumably later, entries were shakey. He speculated that Swanson may have been suffering from a Neurological disorder such as Parkinsonism. There is no evidence whatsoever that Swanson was suffering from any form of Parkinsonism and quite a lot of evidence that suggest he wasn’t. Nearly every form of Parkinsonism is associated with a degree of mental debilitation and Swanson was supposedly very sharp up until the end. We have also been told that in his dotage he liked to sit threading flies for fishing – an activity that would be impossible if he suffered from any form of Parkinsonism. There is no indication in Dr Davis’s second report that this issue was addressed.

A pencil written letter was latterly found from 1923 that had similar shakey handwriting and this was used as a match against the shakey parts of the Marginalia, in Dr Davis’s second report. This letter came from the same source as the Marginalia, but was nevertheless accepted without question as corroboration.
There was an ink written letter from 1918 but I do not believe it showed the same signs of shakeyness and I do not believe this letter formed part of the basis of Dr Davis’s conclusion.
The pencil letter should in my opinion be closely looked at and other sources of Swanson’s handwriting sought out for the relevant period.

Then there is the News of the World documentation. It apparently all came to light in July 2011, the same month the News of the World went out of business. Part of this documentation consists of a draft article, supposedly from 1981, that turned up out of the blue at the Scotland Yard Crime Museum in that month. The provenance of the News of the World supporting documents could probably be established but there has never been any suggestion that an attempt has been made to do this.

The touchy, quick to temper, irate and closed minded attitude that goes along with the Marginalia’s proponents is one of the things that suggest to me that it should be tested more vigorously. It suggests to me that there may be concealed doubts.

I didn’t in fact start this thread with the intention of going into the Marginalia’s provenance – but it has inevitably been forced into that direction by the ‘Marginalists’.
Why on earth not just seize the opportunity to have the whole collection looked at by independent experts who deal with these sorts of items regularly and who would also get the best price and would also give this field of study a publicity boost and one that enhances the credibility of ‘Ripperological’ research?

As Trevor mentioned I suspect one reason the ‘Marginalia’ has not been sold is because there is still a question mark over them.

Obviously that is the family’s decision to make, but I would suggest that unsatisfactory question remarks will remain if these documents are sold privately and then disappear into private hands.

[Chris]

Before your indignation gets the better of you, if you wrote a book and asked your best mate, who was also a literary critic, to review it, then arguably that review would not be so valuable as one from someone who had never met you before in their life.

Except that Dr Davies wasn't the "best mate" of anyone involved, as you know full well.

So I'll ask again - what exactly are you suggesting? That Dr Davies's conclusion was influenced by a relationship with someone involved with the marginalia? If not, what?

[Lechmere]

Chris
If you continue reading you will see reasons why Dr Davis was potentially too close to the principals involved.

[Ally]

Chris
Before your indignation gets the better of you, if you wrote a book and asked your best mate, who was also a literary critic, to review it, then arguably that review would not be so valuable as one from someone who had never met you before in their life. Although your mate may have consciously tried to divorce your pre-existing relationship from his mind, and although he may be a literary critic of the highest professional standard and competence, there is a chance that sub-consciously he may have pulled his punches or been overly kind to you.
This would carry no implication for your friend’s professionalism, skill or competence, would it?

It is the same potentially with Dr Davis. That is not a potentially serious allegation.
Are you crystal clear about that?

What actual FACTS do you have to support the innuendo/idea that there was ANY pre-existing personal relationship between the Swanson Family and Dr. Davis?

By Dr Davis being too close to principals (potentially) I do not mean to suggest he was related to them.
He conducted the second test in the owner’s house while accepting their hospitality – that could create too convivial an atmosphere.

ROFLMAO. SO your entire conjecture is based on where his butt was when he examined the document? Yes, because a cup of tea and a cookie is enough to make a man throw out years of professional training and go "Eh, well obviously this is a forgery but they gave me a cuppa and are such nice folks, I'll just lie and tell them it's authentic"??? That's your argument?

A pencil written letter was latterly found from 1923 that had similar shakey handwriting and this was used as a match against the shakey parts of the Marginalia, in Dr Davis’s second report. This letter came from the same source as the Marginalia, but was nevertheless accepted without question as corroboration.

Yeah people's handwriting definitely does not get more shaky as they age. That's a fact. Old people's hands are rock solid.

There was an ink written letter from 1918 but I do not believe it showed the same signs of shakeyness and I do not believe this letter formed part of the basis of Dr Davis’s conclusion.
The pencil letter should in my opinion be closely looked at and other sources of Swanson’s handwriting sought out for the relevant period.

Wow. A valid point in the midst of a sea of irrationality. It's like finding a gold nugget in a pile of dog droppings.

The touchy, quick to temper, irate and closed minded attitude that goes along with the Marginalia’s proponents is one of the things that suggest to me that it should be tested more vigorously. It suggests to me that there may be concealed doubts.

Yeah that irate attitude probably has nothing to do with you and your mates and how you go about presenting your ideas.

I didn’t in fact start this thread with the intention of going into the Marginalia’s provenance – but it has inevitably been forced into that direction by the ‘Marginalists’.

Oh yeah, they totally dragged you there kicking and screaming against your will.

Why on earth not just seize the opportunity to have the whole collection looked at by independent experts who deal with these sorts of items regularly and who would also get the best price and would also give this field of study a publicity boost and one that enhances the credibility of ‘Ripperological’ research?

And are you going to pay for that to occur?

As Trevor mentioned I suspect one reason the ‘Marginalia’ has not been sold is because there is still a question mark over them.

I suspect that the reason it hasn't sold is no one wants to pay 20,000 pounds for a scribbled in, red-inked marked-up book.

[Rubyretro]

I don't think that Lechmere should post the results of private conversations-however revealing the information undoubtedly is.

[Chris]

If you continue reading you will see reasons why Dr Davis was potentially too close to the principals involved.

I read your post before, and I saw no such reasons at all. On the contrary, I don't doubt that Dr Davies was trying to be helpful when he went to the trouble of travelling to Bill Swanson's house to look at the document. It's a great shame that his recompense for that helpfulness is to be subjected to smears and innuendo on the Internet. Just as it shameful that the Swansons themselves should be subjected to the same kind of thing.

[Lechmere]

Ally
I didn’t suggest that Dr Davis had a pre-existing relationship with the Swanson family.
I think that someone should arrange a course of basic English comprehension for some posters on this site.

I gave an example of why suggesting that an expert may be sub consciously swayed in giving an opinion, which has no bearing or implication on his honesty, integrity or capability.
I then went on to suggest possible reasons for Dr Davis being subconsciously swayed.

If you read what I said about Dr Davis you will comprehend that your nonsense about tea and biscuits clearly wasn’t my argument.

To clarify the Parkinsonism issue for you, Dr Davis did not say in his first report that the handwriting showed signs of being that of an old person who may have become a bit frail. He said that it showed signs of someone suffering from a neurological condition such as Parkinsonism. That is a massive step up from regular old age frailty.

And no Ally – I’m not going to pay for anything to be done. If the sale was conducted through a reputable auction house then they would do it. That is my point.

[Rubyretro]

Even if it is the genuine, one of a kind marginalia of Swanson, realistically speaking, who really gives a flying frak? It's one man's opinion and notes.

There is a large public interest in discovering who was Jack the Ripper ( witness all the published books, films and TV series even loosely based around the subject).

On another thread it was argued that the official police suspects were somehow worth more than more recent suspects ( even though we are now more experienced in serial killers, and have better access to facts about the suspects lives, via computers).

Ergo, a document that purports to identify the name of Jack the Ripper, as known by senior policemen, is of great historical interest outside of our small pool of enthusiasts.

With the right marketing it would be worth a good deal more than through a private sale.

The only reason that I can see not to publicise and sell it with as much fanfare as the owners could drum up, is that it would then be subjected to new verification?

So what are they frightened of is my immediate question ??

[Lechmere]

Chris
I haven’t seen any smears or innuendoes at Dr Davis’s expense.

If a new document is discovered should it be accepted at face value so as not to smear the finder?
That is a pitiful proposition and repeated attempts to drag discussion into allegations that specific people are being libelled or individuals accused of things is merely and obviously an attempt to shut off debate.
That is what always happens with respect to the marginalia. It is disgraceful and reflects shamefully on those who employ those tactics.

No one is being accused of anything – but if documents are to be accepted they should go through a properly rigorous process and I do not believe that has been the case with this collection.

[Lechmere]

Ruby
Are you trying to state the obvious based on my revelations of private conversations - or what?

[Ally]

Ally

I think that someone should arrange a course of basic English comprehension for some posters on this site.

I agree, I can point you to some as soon as you are ready to admit you have a problem. That is the first step after all.

I then went on to suggest possible reasons for Dr Davis being subconsciously swayed.

"Subconsciously swayed". Riiiiight. Why yes, training is completely overridden by a cozy atmosphere.

If you read what I said about Dr Davis you will comprehend that your nonsense about tea and biscuits clearly wasn’t my argument.

I have yet to see that you actually have an argument. Just a lot of innuendo.

And no Ally – I’m not going to pay for anything to be done. If the sale was conducted through a reputable auction house then they would do it. That is my point.

Yes, they will -- FOR A WHOPPING GREAT FEE. It's not FREE Eddie. It costs money.

[Chris]

I haven’t seen any smears or innuendoes at Dr Davis’s expense.

I've seen little else from you on this thread.

[Lechmere]

A fee that would be compensated for by a higher selling price.

And as I said earlier, if marketed properly TV interest could easily be generated and they would pay for it.

The innuendo Chris comes from those who have corralled their wagons around the Marginalia and are hyper sensitive to any criticism of the process. The shrill voices are here for all to see.