Just where do we go from here?

[DVV]

Actually I do know the bible and I even know that what you are clumsily misquoting is from Paul's letter to the Galatians. But once again, what a human mortal man writes in a letter to people does not overturn the whole of God's law. God set down the diet, man cannot overturn it. Or are you saying that Christians who selectively apply God's law are being real christians but Muslims who choose to ignore parts of the Quoran aren't "real muslims". It seems you are applying two very different standards to the two religions.

Sorry again, but Paul played a major role in the "invention" of Christianism.

And no, you're wrong again, Muslims can't ignore parts of the Koran. Some parts have already been "abrogated" by Muhammad himself, then this "science" has been developped.

An example : in one part, wine is said to be a good thing.
Then it has been clearly forbidden.
No Muslim is allowed to drink because of the abrogated part.

Same with the Qibla.
At the beginning, the Koran oredered to pray toward Jérusalem. Then, after Muhammad killed the Jewish tribes, he (or God, if you believe that) changed the direction.

No Muslim can now pray toward Jérusalem, although it is still in the Koran.

Seen ?

[Errata]

Errata,

you are constantly judging islam according to your personal experience and friends.
I too have so-called Muslim friends. The fact that they don't want to kill me doesn't mean islam is a peaceful religion. It rather means they don't care much, or don't know their religion very well.
Therefore, it's meaningless.
That's why I advice you to meet real Muslims.

As for the Bible being the word of God, etc, no. Not in the sense that the Koran is.
Hence the many debates to define the canon (in Christian churches).

But Muhammad is believed to have directly spoken what God told him : ventriloquist and puppet.
Hence the theory of the "uncreated" Koran... but this is going too far, I suppose.

I can only judge Islam by my experience. Nobody can judge Islam by anything other than their experience. And who are you to define real Muslims? I've read the texts. I've heard the interpretations. And there are many. Judaism has branched into four different sects over disagreement on interpretation. Christianity has splintered worse than a broken pencil over interpretation of text. Over what is God's law and what is parable. You have more than a 100 versions of Christianity. What, Islam can't do the same?

[Robert]

"If we were living in a rational world (which I am beginning to doubt) it might be worth asking why so many of you seem to be so absolutely terrified of Muslims."

Maybe there are too many coffin dodgers on the boards, Chris. I mean, take a look at this :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ma...word:news-grid main-1 Main trailblock:Editable trailblock - news:Position1:sublinks

Note in particular the penultimate paragraph.

[Ally]

Ally, check the Bible.
What I've clumsily quoted from Paul IS in the New Testament.
It's canonic.
And that's why Christians are allowed to eat pork, although Paul was born a Jew.

Actually I do know the bible and I even know that what you are clumsily misquoting is from Paul's letter to the Galatians. But once again, what a human mortal man writes in a letter to people does not overturn the whole of God's law. God set down the diet, man cannot overturn it. Or are you saying that Christians who selectively apply God's law are being real christians but Muslims who choose to ignore parts of the Quoran aren't "real muslims". It seems you are applying two very different standards to the two religions.

[Ally]

Being a dhimmi = paying more taxes.

So what? You think christians don't get taxbreaks that atheists don't get? Tithes to the church are tax exempt. There are multi-billion dollar churches who pay not a dime in taxes.

Being humiliated in numerous ways (ride a donkey, not a horse, etc).

And if anybody rode a horse or donkey any more, this might be a valid argument but citing archaic practices in support isn't any more valid than me citing that the god of the Christians once killed the firstborn of all nonbelievers and they were all okey doke with that. And have you heard of the practice of slavery? Christians were all on board with that one. Everyone singles out the "not us" for bad treatment. If you don't believe it, try to be a professed atheist in America and get elected to the Presidency or the Senate.

Sorry, I'm not American, but if such things happen, I agree it's bad. But it doesn't defines Christianity.

Really why doesn't it? I mean if you want to point at all the bad crap in Islam and say it doesn't define Islam and then go oh but Christians are excused, you're argument is hypocritical and you in fact have no rational argument.

If the bad elements of one religion is what defines it, then the same most hold true of all religions.

[DVV]

Uh, no. That is not what Paul said. Paul said that they could eat the meat in the market and if they go to a neighbor's banquet to not question the preparation. He did not overturn the whole of God's law regarding diet, and even if so, when does the word of mere man override the word of God?

Ally, check the Bible.
What I've clumsily quoted from Paul IS in the New Testament.
It's canonic.
And that's why Christians are allowed to eat pork, although Paul was born a Jew.

[Ally]

False, and utterly so.

In the NT, Paul expressively says : "What enters your mouth and goes out of your a*** has no importance at all"

Uh, no. That is not what Paul said. Paul said that they could eat the meat in the market and if they go to a neighbor's banquet to not question the preparation. He did not overturn the whole of God's law regarding diet, and even if so, when does the word of mere man override the word of God?

[DVV]

Not that there are none. But I've never met any, so why should the Muslims I know be punished? Most of us have had very few if any encounters with violent angry Muslims. I've had far more contact with violent angry Christians, and I'm not proposing they should be made second class citizens. Their religion has pushed them to violence, but I don't think Christianity is some scourge upon the earth. Just that some Christians are. You want to assume that every Muslim is violent, but they aren't. You can pick out verses in their holy scriptures that can encourage violence. I can pick out verses in every holy book I've ever read. If I've never met a violent Muslim face to face, then clearly they are not lurking behind every corner. They are absolutely out there... but I am not so afraid of the world or of death to punish people for something they didn't do, and had no intention of doing.

No, hundred times no.
Many Muslims are better than their religion, Dieu merci. Or they don't know their religion, thanks again.
Islam is essentially a violent religion, this is written in its OWN corpus, and moreover it's fundamentally a non-egalitarian vision of humanity.

I don't care if they are still beheading people by sword and cutting arms in Saudi.
But I don't want this religion to have any influence in my own country.

[DVV]

Errata,

you are constantly judging islam according to your personal experience and friends.
I too have so-called Muslim friends. The fact that they don't want to kill me doesn't mean islam is a peaceful religion. It rather means they don't care much, or don't know their religion very well.
Therefore, it's meaningless.
That's why I advice you to meet real Muslims.

As for the Bible being the word of God, etc, no. Not in the sense that the Koran is.
Hence the many debates to define the canon (in Christian churches).

But Muhammad is believed to have directly spoken what God told him : ventriloquist and puppet.
Hence the theory of the "uncreated" Koran... but this is going too far, I suppose.

[Errata]

So what ? There are none ? Where have you been ?



Indeed. My driver shot dead by the friendly Islamic Liberation Front of Oromyya. And I've seen much worse in a school near to Diré-Dawa.
But I hate speaking of my personal experience. It's meaningless.
You've never met any Muslim ready to kill for his religion ?
So what ?
I've never been to Boston myself. Should I not care about this 8 years old child that has been killed ? Was he not real because I've never met him ?

Not that there are none. But I've never met any, so why should the Muslims I know be punished? Most of us have had very few if any encounters with violent angry Muslims. I've had far more contact with violent angry Christians, and I'm not proposing they should be made second class citizens. Their religion has pushed them to violence, but I don't think Christianity is some scourge upon the earth. Just that some Christians are. You want to assume that every Muslim is violent, but they aren't. You can pick out verses in their holy scriptures that can encourage violence. I can pick out verses in every holy book I've ever read. If I've never met a violent Muslim face to face, then clearly they are not lurking behind every corner. They are absolutely out there... but I am not so afraid of the world or of death to punish people for something they didn't do, and had no intention of doing.

[Errata]

That we know.
How many times will you hammer it in front of you computer ?

Instead, go to Mogadiscio and shout it out once.

I don't say it to brag or call attention, I say it as a preface to explain that what I was taught is different. Fundamentalist Christians are taught that the Bible is the actual word of god. Even non fundamentalist Christians are taught that, but they simply tend not to believe it. That is not a belief in Judaism. The only word we received from god's own hands are the Ten Commandments. I find it is just simpler to preface statements made about religious concerns by identifying my ow religion, because otherwise it tends to be a thing where people tell me I'm wrong and I'm going to hell until I remind them I am not a Christian. They may still think I'm going to hell, but they no longer think I'm just making stuff up about Christianity.

I would say that I'm sorry it bothers you, but I learned a long time ago that the people it bothers are worthless. I don't know if you object to my professions of Judaism or to my actual Judaism, but never in my life have I heard someone get told to shut up about their Christianity in a discussion of religions. Maybe that's to do with where I live, but the fact that you feel the need to tell me to go shout it in Mogadishu where the consequences of such an act are dangerous if not deadly, I have to wonder what's going on in your head. Is this something you feel I should lose my life for? Do you think I should be punished? Do you think I don't know how Jews are treated in the world? Or here in my backyard? Do you think I don't know what the relationships between Jews and Muslims are out there in the world?

Whatever the intent of that statement is, you just told me to stop telling you, and go tell someone who will kill me for saying it. You just told me that my professions of Judaism bother you, and that I should die for doing it. And you haven't said anything similar to anyone of another religion, or lack of religion. Which prompts me to ask, what the hell is wrong with you?

[DVV]

The whole concept of dhimmi means :

you have the choice : being a second-class citizen, or executed.

Is that good ?

Oh, so much.

edit : and it has not been invented by a Muslim ruler at the time of the crusades, it's in the Koran, supposed to be the word of God. Who can suppress it ?

edit 2 : and note it applies only to the "people of the Book". Pagans have no choice : they have to die.

[DVV]

And technically so does the Judeo-Christian religion in terms of what to eat and when to poop, just most of them ignore it.

False, and utterly so.

In the NT, Paul expressively says : "What enters your mouth and goes out of your a*** has no importance at all"

[DVV]

Actually I am not sure of your point. Dhimmi provides for protection from the law for non-believers. This is, theoretically a good thing. It is no different in that term than a non-believer living in the USA and or law that says they can't be denied a job based on their religion. So how is that different at all?

Being a dhimmi = paying more taxes.
Being humiliated in numerous ways (ride a donkey, not a horse, etc).


Sorry, I'm not American, but if such things happen, I agree it's bad. But it doesn't defines Christianity.

[Smoking Joe]

With respect Dave, that is also the ultimate objective of Christianity.

I think we have to sit down and think very carefully about why some young men in our society are becoming radicalised in this way. If we make no attempt to understand them, if we just banish them from our shores to some remote island somewhere, then we will not solve the problem. I know some of you think that is 'wishy-washy left-wing-do-gooding, but seriously, it has to be done. That does not mean that these young men should not be accountable for their actions and punished accordingly, but if we want to prevent this kind of thing escalating, we have to work on prevention from within the communities.

We have had what seems an age of sitting down,trying to understand, and yes wishy washy do gooding,and it has brought us to this. We have procrastinated, tried to understand, pampered ,worked on prevention from within ......and still the atrocities and casualties amount. No amount of wringing of hands or sitting on our thumbs will change the fact that there are those within Islam ,and indeed in other creeds and organisations who will never understand anything other than brute force.