Just where do we go from here?

[DVV]

just decided to bring some levity to the table...lol Its the 70's and 80's "supporters" that caused the trouble.. a MINORITY of fans.. please note.....

lol


Phil

A minority ?

Certainly.

Still, there are problems with football.

(See the recent events in Paris with the Paris Saint Germain. Hear the insults at every match. Listen to those who like this sport but cannot bring their children to certain stadiums.)

But here, Errata and Ally would say that all sports are the same.

So let's football don't be blamed.

And if you dare to blame it, blame figure skating as well

[Phil Carter]

Levity? here?....
Cmon yoo Spuuuurs

Levity achieved ;-)

Have a good close season :-)

Phil

[Smoking Joe]

just decided to bring some levity to the table...lol Its the 70's and 80's "supporters" that caused the trouble.. a MINORITY of fans.. please note.....

lol


Phil

Levity? here? Well that would be a first.Its akin to stuffing a pork sausage down the back of a Burka.
Yes quite, I agree, you cant blame ALL the Inter City Firm for the actions of a few.

Cmon yoo Spuuuurs

[DVV]

Errata is off-topic - as always, when she's not completely wrong.

Crusaders were in no way obeying the New Testament or the example given by Jesus or the Apostles.
(And btw, crusades aren't more to blame than islamic conquests. Didn't the fall of Constantinople occur long after the crusades ? Wasn't the 4th crusade a war between Christians ? - but enough, this is off-topic).

On the contrary, jihad is a doctrine thoroughly and repeatedly exposed in the Koran, the hadith, and the life of prophet Muhammad.

Everybody knows that.

Except Errata and Ally.

But it doesn't matter much.

[Phil Carter]

just decided to bring some levity to the table...lol Its the 70's and 80's "supporters" that caused the trouble.. a MINORITY of fans.. please note.....

lol


Phil

[Smoking Joe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UbqZ_oN5do


Phil

Chelsea Supporters stirring up trouble again.

regards

[Phil Carter]

and now...it's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UbqZ_oN5do

Phil

[Ally]

You detest being lumped in the same category as Crusaders, or Inquisitors, or Eric Rudolph and his gang, or Branch Davidians. Even though to an outsider there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of difference in your respective beliefs. Don't do it to others. Just accept that you don't have the necessary background, training, or exposure to Islam to judge it's worth to it's followers. A single interpretation may be the difference between an extremist and a peace activist, and you don't have what it takes to either discern the importance of that difference, or judge who is right and who is wrong.

Amen.

[Errata]

Christianity has not been offended so far.
Common sense has.
Indeed, how could nonsense offend anything else ?

Jesus told people to turn the other cheek, love their ennemies, and accepted to die on the cross.

Everybody is welcome to think these are stupid advices, but saying that all religions are the same, when Muhammad ordered murders, made war, allowed rape, promised heaven with 70 virgins to any Muslim who would die in a battle, is nothing but a gross nonsense.

Here's the part that you are not understanding, so I am going to make this exceedingly simple.

It doesn't matter.

Let's say you are correct. Let's say that Christianity is a superior religion with nothing but peace and love at it's heart and Islam is violent, sadistic, and acquisitive. Evil psychotic bastards act in the name of Christ, and good and righteous men act in the name of Allah. It doesn't matter what you believe Islam is, it matters what Muslims believe Islam is. And many Muslims, in fact the majority of Muslims, think that theirs is the way of peace. You may think they are wrong. It doesn't matter. You may think Islam is an evil religion. That doesn't matter either. If a guy with a bomb strapped to his chest walks in to your living room, your satisfaction with "being proved right" isn't going to save you. And telling millions of people that their prophet was an abusive warmonger is not going to make them stop.

Faith is about interpreting a lot of information that seems irrelevant to a modern life. You don't know know that they are doing it wrong any more than they know that they are doing it right. You believe that your interpretation of irrelevant facts and somewhat vague declarations is correct. I'm not sure it is. If I was, I would believe what you believe. You present your opinion of Islam as fact. Faith isn't about fact. It's about belief. And you're opinion of Islam is irrelevant. Your interpretation of Islam is irrelevant. Their interpretation of Islam is relevant. All of their interpretations of Islam.

You detest being lumped in the same category as Crusaders, or Inquisitors, or Eric Rudolph and his gang, or Branch Davidians. Even though to an outsider there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of difference in your respective beliefs. Don't do it to others. Just accept that you don't have the necessary background, training, or exposure to Islam to judge it's worth to it's followers. A single interpretation may be the difference between an extremist and a peace activist, and you don't have what it takes to either discern the importance of that difference, or judge who is right and who is wrong.

[The Good Michael]

Houris are not so ambiguous, Mike. They're said to be virgin, untouched by men and devils. Clearly they're females. (At this stage, I feel sorry for female suicide bombers.)
Their number isn't specified in the Koran. The number of 70 (sometimes 72) actually comes from the Hadith.

But wait, if you prefer, you'll also find ephebes in paradise (see sura 52, v24 and 76 v19).

But they aren't women. They're houris which makes them not exactly female. As for the women, clerics say that the words claiming they will get whatever their hearts desire, hint at some sort of perfect male sexual object, but out of modesty for women's virtue, the exact details could not be written. As for me Quran pages make decent toilet tissue.

Mike

[Ally]

In that first post I felt th etime had come that I ought to speak up. I just felt at that point that if people really want to attack others simply because they despise their personal beliefs, OK, I'm not going to duck and hide like I'm ashamed or something- here I am, this is my personal belief, and you can attack me if you want to.

Interestingly, Ally, you seem to be the only person who has wanted to.

Please point out where I have attacked you. In your post, you called posters and their posts rude, irritating, vitriolic and a couple of other things I can't remember right now. I don't remember ever calling you or your message the same.

[Robert]

If it's a gross nonsense then it ought to be 144.

[DVV]

I think it's 72 and they are houris, sort of an ambiguous angel thing. Funny thing is, women get male houris too, but no one ever talks about that. I just wish the suicide bombers practiced at home before they went out in the world...with live explosives.

Mike

Houris are not so ambiguous, Mike. They're said to be virgin, untouched by men and devils. Clearly they're females. (At this stage, I feel sorry for female suicide bombers.)
Their number isn't specified in the Koran. The number of 70 (sometimes 72) actually comes from the Hadith.

But wait, if you prefer, you'll also find ephebes in paradise (see sura 52, v24 and 76 v19).

[The Good Michael]

Christianity has not been offended so far.
Common sense has.
Indeed, how could nonsense offend anything else ?

Jesus told people to turn the other cheek, love their ennemies, and accepted to die on the cross.

Everybody is welcome to think these are stupid advices, but saying that all religions are the same, when Muhammad ordered murders, made war, allowed rape, promised heaven with 70 virgins to any Muslim who would die in a battle, is nothing but a gross nonsense.

I think it's 72 and they are houris, sort of an ambiguous angel thing. Funny thing is, women get male houris too, but no one ever talks about that. I just wish the suicide bombers practiced at home before they went out in the world...with live explosives.

Mike

[Limehouse]

Hi Ally.

I'm afraid you are completely wrong in your supposition.

I began to think about giving up on Casebook quite close to the beginning of the thread, when I read the posts collectively blaming all Muslims for the actions of a few, insisting that Muslims cannot and do not even wish to live in peace, and calling for their complete expulsion from all Western nations. Subsequent posts teetered on calling for their outright extermination.

I was appalled to witness so many Casebookers directing their anger not at the terrorists who murdered the British soldier or set off the bombs in Boston, but at ALL Muslims. Almost 25% of the people living in the world are Muslim. Nearly 1 in 4.
- Are 1.6 BILLION human beings actually all alike? Really? Are they ALL to be judged guilty for the actions of a few?

Adolph Hitler was a big fan of the concept of 'Collective Guilt'. Remember the hideous propaganda film "The Eternal Jew", where Jewish human beings are directly equated with rats and other loathsome vermin? That was a brilliant propaganda tactic, it helped turn off the consciences of millions of Nazis and desensitized them to the atrocities they were committing. The Jewish victims were no longer human men, women, and children- they were VERMIN, who "had" to be exterminated to "save" the race and the reich.

Those who fail to learn from History are doomed to repeat it. Extremist hate speech doesn't belong on Casebook. It doesn't belong for a myriad of reasons; a very minor one being that it's a total waste of server space.

The Casebookers I exchanged pm's and emails with very early in this thread can vouch for the fact that I told them I was utterly horrified by the hatred that was being spewed upon all Muslims. In fact, I wrote and thanked a couple of individuals who had the courage to speak up early in this thread and calmly voice their objections to that hate speech. They also tried to calm down the tone of the thread, which I think was the right thing to do, and I thanked them for that too. This occurred before the subjects of Christianity and Judaism and everything else got thrown into the meleé.

I stayed out of the thread in the beginning both because I was so horrified by it and because in the beginning it revolved around around the domestic situation in the UK. As an American I didn't feel sufficiently knowledgeable about UK internal politics. But my friends can attest to the fact that I told them early on that one of the aspects of this thread upsetting me the most was that people I have long considered to be friends - including those who profess to be Christian - were among those spewing hatred against all Muslims, and spewing vitriol at all those who disagreed with them. That shocked me.

This thread has been like some kind of warped abusefest, with individuals attacking one another's personal spiritual beliefs and doing their utmost to put each other down. I remarked to a handful of Casebook friends that some thread participants seemed to feel they were scoring imaginary "points" against each other. I told my friends I felt ashamed of the deliberate meanness. They agreed it was disgusting, but counseled me to try not to take it so much to heart. But what must this thread look like to non-members, to potential Casebook members, to the public looking on? I guarantee you, if this thread has been available for reading 6 years ago I would never have joined Casebook.

I stayed out of the thread for over 350 posts, until I read a post claiming that Jesus Christ "had advocated stoning women to death". That's when I replied. I did not in any way attack the person who made that post - who by the way I consider a FRIEND. I simply thought I could clear up a misunderstanding, and offered the lines where Christ save the life of the adulteress by saying to the angry mob, "Let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone". (My post is there for anybody to read. I think it's #354.)

Ironically, Ally, I made my second post just to agree with your post where you offered the lines, "Judge not, lest ye be judged", even though the person you were arguing with is a Christian and a personal friend of mine.

In that first post I felt th etime had come that I ought to speak up. I just felt at that point that if people really want to attack others simply because they despise their personal beliefs, OK, I'm not going to duck and hide like I'm ashamed or something- here I am, this is my personal belief, and you can attack me if you want to.

Interestingly, Ally, you seem to be the only person who has wanted to.

You're welcome to exercise your right to freedom of speech, but in this case you based your attack upon a mistaken supposition.

I realize you may not believe me; that's alright; I accept that. I don't think it would be appropriate for me to give you a list of the names of all the people I spoke to regarding my revulsion for all of the hate speech displayed on this thread, because they have a right to privacy. But if any of them feel like telling you via pm or something that's OK with me.

But I certainly don't want anybody to feel obligated to do so- after all, mistaken suppositions seem to make the world go 'round.

Peace everybody,
Archaic

Excellent post.