Just where do we go from here?

[DVV]

In 2013, some Imams, following the example of their prophet, openly argue that rape isn"t a crime if committed by Muslims on non-Muslims women.
And that religion still legalizes polygamy - for men, of course.

But hey, no worries. As Ally has explained, all religions are the same, equally violent and equally non-egalitarian.

Having never heard a single priest allowing rape on non-Christian women, I'm sure I've missed something.

[Limehouse]

Salman Rushdie is still alive. He's not hiding, though he did for about three months. He's had a fatwa against him since 1989. In fact, of all the people threatened with death or actually sentenced to death for perceived slights to Islam, the only one I can even think of that was actually murdered was Theo Van Gogh. And he was killed by a mentally unbalanced Muslim man. So far it is all sound and fury signifying nothing. Now Muslims were pissed over the Danish cartoons. They protested, the protests eventually turned violent. Protest long enough and it's kind of inevitable. But after months of protests in every Muslim Nation, most of Europe, North America, Australia, etc. involving millions of people, there were 200 deaths worldwide. And of those 200, maybe 20 of those deaths were people who were attacked by the mobs as opposed to people participating in the protests. So Myanmar Buddhists killed more Muslims in March than Muslims killed worldwide over the course of several months.
It's not okay that anybody died, that anybody was attacked. It's really not. There's a lot of people in this world and a lot of violence. But for a moment, let's examine similar losses of life in the past few years. The Oklahoma tornado killed more people, A school bus recently exploded in Pakistan, The Factory explosion in China, The shooting at Virginia Tech killed more people, The Sandy Hook shootings killed more people, Kandahar Massacre, Utoya was a lot more... It doesn't even bear repeating how many Syrian Muslims have died at the hands of other Syrian Muslims. And out of all the things on this list, and I admit I only included things that I paid attention to for some reason or another, the only stories I read more than a single article on were Virginia Tech, Utoya, and Sandy Hook. And only because mental health was involved. I can't get all hot and bothered about protests that killed 20 innocent people when I can't get all hot and bothered over Owner negligence that kills the same amount of people in a factory.

Good points Errata.

Has anyone mentioned the drones currently killing innocent men, women and children in Pakistan? Is Pakistan at war with America? Has Pakistan threatened America?

How many people posting filth on this thread were moved by the 1,000 plus people who died in a collapsed factory making cheap clothing for British shops - earning pennies?

There are good people and evil people everywhere, in all walks of life. Some of them are religious and some of them are political fanatics. Stalin did not follow a religion, but killed millions of people.

Some of the comments on this thread make me very sad and even ashamed. Honest, clean-living, decent people are being condemned because of the actions of a few. Condemn the action and condemn the person(s) responsible for the action - but leave the innocents alone.

[Beowulf]

Good points Errata.

Has anyone mentioned the drones currently killing innocent men, women and children in Pakistan? Is Pakistan at war with America? Has Pakistan threatened America?

How many people posting filth on this thread were moved by the 1,000 plus people who died in a collapsed factory making cheap clothing for British shops - earning pennies?

There are good people and evil people everywhere, in all walks of life. Some of them are religious and some of them are political fanatics. Stalin did not follow a religion, but killed millions of people.

Some of the comments on this thread make me very sad and even ashamed. Honest, clean-living, decent people are being condemned because of the actions of a few. Condemn the action and condemn the person(s) responsible for the action - but leave the innocents alone.

In America it's late I'm going to bed in a min here, it's midnight, but they're not really arresting people for stuff they say on the internet against Muslims are they? That seems incredible to me.

I really don't know about the drone thing but Pakistan is I believe where Bin Laden was hiding and Al Qaeda. They're not exactly on the party list over here.

[DVV]

Ah, Pakistan !
A lovely country practicing a modern and peaceful islam.

More seriously, the Taliban Afghanistan was nothing but a satellite country of Pakistan. So yes, they have threatened the whole western world and are directly responsible of Sept 11.

Not that I agree with the current bombing of its population. That's American foreign policy, facing the imbroglio they have created.

Sept 11 was planned in Afghanistan/ Pakistan. And out of 18 terrorists, 15 were Saudian.

But George Bush chose to conquer Irak.

[Phil Carter]

I think the problem is the way people twist religion for there own means.

Hello John,

Good point


Phil

[Phil Carter]

Is it always like this here?
.

Hello Joe,

Only on a Sunday....


Phil

[Phil Carter]

Religion and politics were once things one was warned never to talk of in pubs....

There was a third thing but I cannot for the life of me remember what it was.

Certainly wasn't the weather!



Phil

[brummie]

OK a few observations after a period of calm reflection rather than a knee jerk rection for which I expect to get a fair amount of abuse and argument but thats life in a society where freedom of expression is allowed.

First thing that any right thinking individual has to do is make clear that this cowardly and barbaric attack can never be justified by any reason whether some spurious religious belief or anything else.

I have been hearing and seeing a lot both before and since about the radicalisation of Muslims, but isn't the out pouring of hate and bigotry by such apalling organisations as the EDL and BNP etc. just another form of radicalisation, turning ordinarily moderate and tolerant people into rabid bigots and haters.Indeed some posters here demonstrate some hallmarks of 'radicalisation' to an anti-muslim stance.

Secondly even before the lilling of Drummer Lee Rigby there was the murder of a muslim grandfather in Birmingham in what may have been a racist attack
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...andfather.html
Indeed racist incidents occur on a regular basis and go unreported by the national media. The point being religion doesn't have to be the only driving force for murder and bigotry.No doubt most of the EDL thugs would claim to be christians but have probably never seen the inside of a church since christening and I doubt have ever fully read a bible.

Don't get me wrong there are many problems with Islam and muslims living in the UK, a society generally at odds with many aspects of their religion and there have equally been many instances of incidents, not necessarily physical attacks but verbal abuse of for example women deemed to dress inappropriately. My point is we should be condemning ALL intolerant behaviour from whichever side. There are laws in existence in this country that ensure freedom of expression for ALL citizens and these should be upheld, indeed only this weekend in there was news of a lesbian muslim couple defying death threats to excerse their right to a civil ceremony.
For thier part muslims need to realise that they have to integrate more fully and accept the rights of other non muslims. Britain has many communities and religions which all get along just fine and muslims need to do the same.I personally don't subscribe to any religious doctrine or beliefs for me organised religion is mankinds greatest curse but I recognise the rights of others to follow whatever path they choose.

The original question was where do we go from here, and th answer is indeed simple:
We ALL needto learn to get along with one another and accept the rights of EVERYONE to hold what ever views they want without imposing our own on them or considering ourselves or our beliefs superior.

[Fleetwood Mac]

There are good people and evil people everywhere, in all walks of life.

Cultural Relativism at its worst.

There are not 'good and bad' everywhere, with the inference being in equal amounts.

There are some countries in this world that are absolute **** holes populated by people who walk round with heads on sticks and are still trying to master fire.

You talk about 'shameful'?! Jesus. This country has a tradition of liberty, hard fought liberty over centuries. To suggest that this country is no different to some of those **** holes out there where they have little concept of liberty and individual freedoms, is 'shameful' and evidently false.

[DVV]

Hello John,

Good point


Phil

No, Phil, this isn't a good point.

A Muslim who makes jihad isn't twisting his religion.

He obeys crystal-clear orders of the Koran and follow the path of his prophet.

Saying this doesn't mean, of course, that all Muslims are violent and all others are nice people.

Amitiés

[Phil Carter]

Hello David,

IMO it is a good point.. because I didn't mention the muslim religion or any other SPECIFIC religion. It refers to any religion.

It doesnt matter what the religion is, the interpretation and actions carried out in the name of that religion, if extreme, are the basis for extremism.. whatever that religion is.

Doing something under interpretation of a religion that "tells" one to murder, when the majority of the people that follow that religion do not interpret it that way, causes extremist actions to be highlighted.

"Obey" is a word I would personally use cautiously, as it is again an interpretation based on depth of literal meaning.

Now back to a quiet pint in the corner! :-)


Hope you are well my friend



Phil

[Smoking Joe]

Cultural Relativism at its worst.

There are not 'good and bad' everywhere, with the inference being in equal amounts.

There are some countries in this world that are absolute **** holes populated by people who walk round with heads on sticks and are still trying to master fire.

You talk about 'shameful'?! Jesus. This country has a tradition of liberty, hard fought liberty over centuries. To suggest that this country is no different to some of those **** holes out there where they have little concept of liberty and individual freedoms, is 'shameful' and evidently false.

That is a straight forward post, and hits the nail directly on the head.
Another poster mentions the EDL and Bnp thugs.Maybe the thugs in the Anti Nazi league ,or whatever they call themselves should be included in the mix.
To try to get along with others is a noble sentiment of course. But what some dont seem to recognise is the fact that we are trying to get along with those who have an irrational and unreasonable hatred towards everything Western. They will hate us whether we pamper them,apply positive discrimination in their favour, or supply them,as we do, with all the sevices,standards and luxuries and rights that their own societies either cant, or for religious reasons are unwilling to. What will it take? How many British soldier's heads or buckets of Western blood must we give them before they promise not to kill us any more?
There are some in this country,and some on this thread who seem to think,judging by their comments, that British culture,Western culture(call it what you will) is of no importance and not worth saving.Yet at the mention of any foreign culture being imported ,at the expense of our own,you can almost see their eyes glazing over in an orgasmic frenzy.
There is nothing wrong in having a pride in, or a fondness for your own culture. Nothing wrong in feeling wronged when watching that culture and society being slowly,,,bit by bit, replaced by a foreign culture because of actions by people and organisations who really should know better. That isnt anti Muslim,that is being pro-British,pro-Western, which are becoming more and more dirty word's due to the propoganda that has been disseminated by multicultural ists and the Loony left over a few decades.
Those groups have much to answer for.We are all now seeing the fruits of such policies,as we try frantically to keep the lid on the pressure cooker ,or keep our index finger foirmly in the hole in the Dyke.
We were warned back in the 60s where these policies would lead.Unfortunately the fools didnt listen.....they rarely do.

[Fleetwood Mac]

That is a straight forward post, and hits the nail directly on the head.
Another poster mentions the EDL and Bnp thugs.Maybe the thugs in the Anti Nazi league ,or whatever they call themselves should be included in the mix.
To try to get along with others is a noble sentiment of course. But what some dont seem to recognise is the fact that we are trying to get along with those who have an irrational and unreasonable hatred towards everything Western. They will hate us whether we pamper them,apply positive discrimination in their favour, or supply them,as we do, with all the sevices,standards and luxuries and rights that their own societies either cant, or for religious reasons are unwilling to. What will it take? How many British soldier's heads or buckets of Western blood must we give them before they promise not to kill us any more?
There are some in this country,and some on this thread who seem to think,judging by their comments, that British culture,Western culture(call it what you will) is of no importance and not worth saving.Yet at the mention of any foreign culture being imported ,at the expense of our own,you can almost see their eyes glazing over in an orgasmic frenzy.
There is nothing wrong in having a pride in, or a fondness for your own culture. Nothing wrong in feeling wronged when watching that culture and society being slowly,,,bit by bit, replaced by a foreign culture because of actions by people and organisations who really should know better. That isnt anti Muslim,that is being pro-British,pro-Western, which are becoming more and more dirty word's due to the propoganda that has been disseminated by multicultural ists and the Loony left over a few decades.
Those groups have much to answer for.We are all now seeing the fruits of such policies,as we try frantically to keep the lid on the pressure cooker ,or keep our index finger foirmly in the hole in the Dyke.
We were warned back in the 60s where these policies would lead.Unfortunately the fools didnt listen.....they rarely do.

It's the post imperial malaise, mate.

The left would like us all to feel guilty because our government invaded somewhere like India in 1743 or something.

The traditions of this country certainly are worth preserving. We have achieved an awful lot in the last 400 years.

Ultimately, we have certain freedoms that mean we are a cut above some of the shitholes out there. And, this is our country. The laws of this land have served us well for 400 years.

If people, and there are some but not all, do not respect what we stand for, then what are they doing here? Why don't they live in a country that is more of a match for their belief system?

[John Wheat]

To DVV

A Muslim who supposedly makes Jihad by for example suicide bombing. Is not following the Koran. They are twisting the Koran for there own ends. Having known some Muslims over the years they informed me that both suicide and weapons of mass destruction were going against the Koran.

Cheers John

[Smoking Joe]

Hello Joe,

Only on a Sunday....


Phil

Is it the religious aspect of SUNDAY that "gets em going" ...just asking