National or International History.

[Smoking Joe]

[QUOTE=Beowulf;261146]



Many judge a leader based on their personality, their looks, their charisma. 'He's a nice guy' based on a smiling face, a seemingly unselfish act, an outward appearance.
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Yes no doubt about that,Its one reason why "our" politicians are such a shameful crowd. All charisma and virtually no substance.The low point in that dept was reached when Cherie Blair let us all into the secret that Tony was a "7 times a night man.Unbelievable is an over used word these days,but that statement WAS unbelievable,one wonders why she made it. But what I think is more disturbing is tthe ever growing connection between commercial interests and political parties and the fact that the presidency of the most powerful country in the world America,is up for sale every few years.History shows up humanity for what it is and merely goes to show that the human race has,and will continue to use up all its humanity doing inhumane things. That should be the message as far as history lessons are concerned,only when that indigestible truth has been accepted can we ever even hope to make this a better world.

[Phil H]

Cherie Blair let us all into the secret that Tony was a "7 times a night man

Sexual energy, appetite and "potency" seems to go hand in hand with success in other fields - numerous business men have shown that, as well as almost all French politicians!! Sportmen too, though that may also have something to do with exercise and fitness.

History shows up humanity for what it is and merely goes to show that the human race has,and will continue to use up all its humanity doing inhumane things. That should be the message as far as history lessons are concerned,only when that indigestible truth has been accepted can we ever even hope to make this a better world.

Yet ironically, out of that inhumane activity, often comes progress - technical or political. From WWII came technological advances which create a HUGE gulf between 1939 and the late 40s in every way.

From the French Revolution came ideas of equality, brotherhood and liberty; the American Revolution and its Civil war gave rise to new conceptions from the Constitution and Declaration of independence, to the Gettysburg Address. The bloodletting at Antietam was the necessary prelude tto emancipation.

Man remains, for all his higher yearnings, an animal in political and military terms. After WWI when the scale of the slaughter did change men's thinkings and steps were taken to try to make it the "war to end all wars" (league of nations, etc) there emerged those who wished to take advantage of the peacemakers by unscrupulous means and for various ends. The highly moral -in some ways- policy of appeasement was shown to be futile - though it helped clarify what democracies were fighting for.

We live now in an era influenced heavily by what happened in 1945 and before - both in terms of political agendas and the nuclear threat. But IMHO we should not come to believe that, somehow, we have evolved and are on a straight road to a pacific (in the sense of peace-loving) future, or the brotherhood of man. I think foreseeable pressures - climate change, population growth, the emergence of new powers; terrorism; fundamentalism (in many faiths); failed states, may lead over the next 100 years to pretty much a 1900 style situation. The use of nuclear weapons (large or small and perhaps suitacse and dirty) may become relatively frequent; dictatorships may emerge with policies not far from Hitler's though perhaps differently motivated.

There is no guarantee, in my view, that man progresses, or learns lessons. Sad but true. I wish it were otherwise.

Phil

[Smoking Joe]

[QUOTE=Phil H;261209]Cherie Blair let us all into the secret that Tony was a "7 times a night man

Sexual energy, appetite and "potency" seems to go hand in hand with success in other fields - numerous business men have shown that, as well as almost all French politicians!! Sportmen too, though that may also have something to do with exercise and fitness.
UNQUOTE

Hi Phil...Not sure Gandhi would have fitted the bill as a "sexual athlete" and of course how much inveterate bragging is involved when we hear of "celebs"(for want of a better term) sex lives.Maybe of course Gandhi might have been an inverted boaster I was just trying to make the point that whether or not Dear ole Tony was or wasnt a 6-7-8-or a 312 times a night man,why would he think anyone would want to know? And looking at Cherie Id imagine once in several lifetimes would be one time too many for most.Politicians might well have been at their best when politics were more of a vocation ,rather than an occupation.

QUOTE
From the French Revolution came ideas of equality, brotherhood and liberty;
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Id suggest that ideas of fraternity liberte and equality were in the minds of many for centuries before Robespierre. And for those who masterminded,or acted within the heirarchy it was an operation to grasp power.Liberty was just a banner to follow.....it was the same old story.....politicians who promise to support and serve the electorate ,In recent times Trade Unions who promised the same and after initial improvements finally enslaved the very people they promised to help. History shows none of this is new,Different eras, Different leaders, Different systems, Different politics,its the same s**t ,just a different wrapper.And of course what you say is true,Mankind doesnt progress spiritually(I think thats what you were hinting at),its soul is still as black as its ever been.

[Phil H]

Actually Gandhi did have a sexual issue - avoiding it in his case. After years of celibacy he slept in the same bed as his neice and got an erection. He was furious with himself. He also had an enema fixation.

I must confess to never having heard the Cherie Blair quote until you mentioned it.

Id suggest that ideas of fraternity liberte and equality were in the minds of many for centuries before Robespierre.

Of course, but please tell me whom you have in mind?

And for those who masterminded,or acted within the heirarchy it was an operation to grasp power.Liberty was just a banner to follow.....it was the same old story.....politicians who promise to support and serve the electorate

What else can politicians do - especially in a democracy?

In recent times Trade Unions who promised the same and after initial improvements finally enslaved the very people they promised to help.

Which country are you thinking of?

History shows none of this is new,Different eras, Different leaders, Different systems, Different politics,its the same s**t ,just a different wrapper.

And what practical system do you think should replace it?

Phil

[Smoking Joe]

Actually Gandhi did have a sexual issue - avoiding it in his case. After years of celibacy he slept in the same bed as his neice and got an erection. He was furious with himself. He also had an enema fixation.
UNQUOTE
Just goes to show nobody's perfect I guess

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Id suggest that ideas of fraternity liberte and equality were in the minds of many for centuries before Robespierre.



Of course, but please tell me whom you have in mind?

UNQUOTE

the ordinary fellow who tilled the fields,fought the wars,raised his family,and so on and so forth.

QUOTE

for those who masterminded,or acted within the heirarchy it was an operation to grasp power.Liberty was just a banner to follow.....it was the same old story.....politicians who promise to support and serve the electorate

What else can politicians do - especially in a democracy?
QUOTE

Fulfill their obligations instead of finding every opportunity to get out of them?
Quote
In recent times Trade Unions who promised the same and after initial improvements finally enslaved the very people they promised to help.

Which country are you thinking of?
UNQUOTE

Great Britain......i.e Red Robbo,Scargill, Flying Pickets,Unlawful Assembly,Union Intimidation,Restrictive Practises, Mass picketing, and much much more
Quote


History shows none of this is new,Different eras, Different leaders, Different systems, Different politics,its the same s**t ,just a different wrapper.

And what practical system do you think should replace it?

Unquote

There isnt one,at least there isnt one that could work for all the people ,unless greed, avarice,and self serving behaviour could somehow be abolished or eradicated.Unfortunately those qualities,along with many others are firmly imprinted in the human psyche.
Ive not got the hang of this quote/unquote thing just yet ,so Ive done best I could .My apologies

[Phil H]

the ordinary fellow who tilled the fields,fought the wars,raised his family,and so on and so forth.

Ah, the unknown pleb, unrecorded so safe!!

Well, I can quite John Ball from c 1387 "When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman."

But that was not my point, out of the horrors of the French Revolution came some political progress which later generations ascibe to that event. In it's turn that was inspired by another conflict - the American Revolution. My point being that war is often a spur to technological and political development.

Notwithstanding your views on the Trades Unions in Britain, they have often done much to support workers individually and collectively. I was a union member - still am though retired - and for all my occasional frustration they do more in bargaining and providing support than anyone else.

It is easy to be cynical about politicians, but how does one brealk the cycle or create something else. Are they representatives (there to make their own mind up and lead their communities0 or delegates (acting only at the behest of the majority of their electorate)?

If they tell the truth, admit they are wrong, or don't know they are likely to be tiorn apart by their opponents. the oldest political trick is to pressure your opponent to "tell the truth" then seize on it when he does.

So they fudge and haver.

Certainly in the UK I do not believe the majority of MPs to be corrupt or to have their nose in the trough any more than anyone is ambitious in their career. ON MPs expenses, Margaret Beckett admitted early on that MPs had been advised to make up through expenses the loss they had suffered in not having their salaries increased for political reasons. Some may have been silly, a very few went too far, but I draw no wider inference from that.

Maybe we should go back to MPs not being paid and encouraging those with private incomes to stand for election - less likely to be corrupt!!!

Phil

[Smoking Joe]

the ordinary fellow who tilled the fields,fought the wars,raised his family,and so on and so forth.

Ah, the unknown pleb, unrecorded so safe!!
UNQUOTE

Safe? Ok Ill be more specific .How about the Egyptian slave, the Black man who was manhandled onto a slave ship,The Christian thrown to the lions, The welsh peasants conscripted into owain glyndwrs army, the list is endless. Did not these people also dream of liberty,fraternity equality also? Maybe those were not the words they used,but the dream was the same su

rely?Im sorry I cant give you any individual names ,because I wasnt there.

QUOTE
Notwithstanding your views on the Trades Unions in Britain, they have often done much to support workers individually and collectively. I was a union member - still am though retired - and for all my occasional frustration they do more in bargaining and providing support than anyone else.
UNQUOTE

Yes they have, they have also done immense harm.They have at times ,while protecting the interests of one set of union members,done great damage to members of other industries.


Quote

Certainly in the UK I do not believe the majority of MPs to be corrupt or to have their nose in the trough any more than anyone is ambitious in their career. ON MPs expenses, Margaret Beckett admitted early on that MPs had been advised to make up through expenses the loss they had suffered in not having their salaries increased for political reasons. Some may have been silly, a very few went too far, but I draw no wider inference from that.

Maybe we should go back to MPs not being paid and encouraging those with private incomes to stand for election - less likely to be corrupt!!!


UNQUOTE

"advised to make up with expenses for the losses they had suffered in not having salaries increased"? So its ok to fiddle expenses then? Sounds corrupt to me. Its not a case of going too far..1p over is still fraud.All your statement proves is that Margaret Beckett aided and abetted,or gave a nod and a wink to Mps who wanted to fiddle things.Fiddling is fiddling no matter who does it.Every MP who claimed falsely should have been prosecuted,not just the odd one..there should have been no "just pay it back and we will forget about it" option.....and you say there is very little corruption? Balderdash ! And of course prosecution for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice in a recent case,conflicting outside interests MPs have,Party political funding issues,old boy networks and the rest.
Yes ,your last suggestion was probabley the best of the lot, based on the assumption that those with most money would be less likely to fiddle or steal(the politically correct term for steal or fiddle is apparently now "make up with expenses what you dont get in non existence payrise").....Society has always been corrupt ,its just that today its become respectable almost....for some that is.

[Smoking Joe]

I think we have strayed a bit....my fault....sorry for unintentionally diverting this thread from history to "how many Mps have their mitts in the till"

[Phil H]

Safe? Ok Ill be more specific .How about the Egyptian slave, the Black man who was manhandled onto a slave ship,The Christian thrown to the lions, The welsh peasants conscripted into owain glyndwrs army, the list is endless. Did not these people also dream of liberty,fraternity equality also? Maybe those were not the words they used,but the dream was the same su

My fault too, but I will just make one point which I think important - there are a lot of unsupported assertions being made on Casebook at the moment.

All the people you mention may well have had thoughts of "freedom" but I feel that one must ask:

a) in their societies (hierarchical, religious etc) was that likely? In other words is the idea of an Egyptian peasant anachronistic and are we reflecting our ideas back on them in an inappropriate way?

b) would they have had the words (in the sense of an articulated philosophical concept) into which to translate their thoughts? Without that a feeling of discomfort, dissatisfaction whatever, would remain just that, would it not?

c) where is the EVIDENCE to support your contention?

That last point brings me back to the theme of teaching history.

Crucial to the whole idea of history, and taught at ALL ages from the youngest up, should be the essential nature of using evidence, checking sources and citing examples. Without that history is wholly opinion and totally subjective. Even with evidence historical interpretation (which is what all history is) remains transitory and subjective, of course, but with evidence the subject at least gains a toe-hold on credibility.

Phil

[Smoking Joe]

c) where is the EVIDENCE to support your contention?
UNQUOTE

I guess the evidence would lie in the many revolutions ,rebellions civil wars throughout History.Surely the vast majority of those conflicts involved some degree of freedom ....freedom from persecution....freedom from oppression..freedom from unprincipled rule.....some werent plainly.
What exactly is freedom? Is freedom being able to do whatever one wishes,when one wishes,as one wishes? That kind of freedom is plainly unattainable.But basic freedoms ,or another kind of freedom if you like,i.e freedom of speech,freedom of thought, religious freedom, freedom from bondage,freedom from persecution.Is it realistic to think that man never craved for that?(pre French revolution)
Like wise did the Egyptian slave ,you highlighted, while dragging huge chunks of stone to the apex of the great pyramid,with the feel of the lash on his back ,not stop occasionally and think "hey Ive had enough of this,I want to be free"?Wouldnt it be reasonable to think He did just that?I would imagine his life would consist of a more than just a "mild disatisfaction" or slight disenchantment with his lot.
Whether they had the vocabulary to express their thoughts beyond the basic idea ,Ive no way of knowing.
Of course History is subjective,the further back we go the more anecdotal it becomes. And of course,even todayeven recent History is being changed one word at a time,one day at a time,in some cases coloured by what is or isnt fashionable,or politically correct.

[Wickerman]

I can understand why the World Wars were not taught so much in the past - perhaps, among other reasons - exactly what they meaning was had not soldified, and wounds (in a literal sense even) could still be raw.

On that small note, my English teacher occasionally had coughing fits in class, he had been gassed during the war.

[Beowulf]

On that small note, my English teacher occasionally had coughing fits in class, he had been gassed during the war.

What an interesting column.

Yes, needs are to explore what happened before us, both objectively and with objectives, but with a look to improving on a more benevolent outlook to the human race and it seems that is not the goal of many 'leaders' these days or even all days. (However, those guys in Stonehenge strike me as being very mindful of their people...and many other examples about the world, what happened to that outlook?)

What a story about your teacher, my god. The poor man, and then again, he was lucky to have made it out.

[Cogidubnus]

When I was a kid growing up in the 50s and 60s, my grandad too was a white haired/balding character too, who spent his life coughing up his lungs into a "spit-jar", having been gassed twice...he acknowledged he'd fought in WWl but wouldn't usually give any details at all (except to his wife, who never let on)...I do know he hated most of the guys who'd go down to the war memorial every November 11th.

He was of the 226th Signals, but fought with the Durham Light Infantry...

I was his first grandson, and this may explain why he once in a while confided in me...

Reverting to the subject of the thread, good national history teaching is essential

All the best

Dave