Suicide bomb gang guilty of plotting 'worst ever terror attack in Britain'

[Beowulf]

"The ringleaders of an al-Qaeda backed British jihadi group have been found guilty of plotting the worst terror attack on UK soil.

The Birmingham-based gang planned to use eight suicide bombers, armed with guns, to cause “mass death” and “carnage” on the streets of Britain.

They planned to cause more damage than the 7/7 London bombings and wanted to carry out “another 9/11”.

Police believe had they been successful it would have been the largest terrorist atrocity on home soil.

Irfan Naseer, 31, Irfan Khalid, 27, and Ashik Ali, 27, were today found guilty of planning a terror campaign after a four and a half month trial at Woolwich Crown Court.

They were also guilty of raising money for terrorism and recruiting others for a terror act..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/9877193/Suicide-bomb-gang-guilty-of-plotting-worst-ever-terror-attack-in-Britain.html

Glad they were caught. Seems God saved the Queen and her countrymen.

[louisa]

It wasn't God but good old fashioned police work.

I have the misfortune of living in Britain, a country where hatred for white people by fundamentalists is tolerated by the police and by the government.

You can be sure that if I went to Afghanistan or Iraq and started shouting anti-Muslim slogans I would soon be taken away and probably decapitated.

Instead Britain gives these people free housing and welfare. What do they do with this free money? Make bombs to blow us up.

[Phil H]

"These people" as you call them - were all born in the UK, had a right to live here and had received all the benefits of a state education, the health service etc.

Maybe, to an extent, it is the lack of understanding, sympathy, sense of diversity or equality shown by some in this country, that help alienate and radicalise such young men.

We have moved on from the immigration of the 50s and 60s when first generation immigrants were arriving in the UK. We are now dealing with the grandchildren or great grandchildren of such people - they are British, as much as anyone can be. Many in their communities are as shocked by their actions as anyone could be.

If we want a tolerant and equal society which benefits everyone; if we want to enjoy free speech, then the law will (in some cases) seem to bend over too far. But we either believe in human rights or we do not.

I am not seeking to excuse the actions of the three young men, but I do take exception to the condesceding tone of the previous post.

If you have read the Harry Potter books, do you stand with the Malfoys only respecting "pure bloods"? That attitude leads eventually to gas chambers and genocide - them and us.

No one in Britain today is likely to be pure anything (a few welsh and Scots maybe). We are all descendents of immigrants whether Roman, Dane, Saxon, Norman or more recent arrivals. When do we stop being they and become us?

If we are all citizens, how would you discriminate between which citizens should receive and which not, benefits? On the basis of ethnicity or the length of time people/families have been resident?

People of all classes, origins and cultures commit crimes, some horrific ones. The IRA committed huge terrorist outrages, but we did not condemn every Irishman and woman.

Sorry for the rant - and I have my moments of anger too (who doesn't) - but rationally, TOLERANCE and understanding (what a Christian would call LOVE) is the only way.

Phil

Edited to add: When someone writes I have the misfortune of living in Britain I can only observe that you are one of the luckiest peple on earth and millions would (and do) give much to take your place.

[Robert]

Human rights don't apply to people who aren't human.

[Robert]

"Many in their communities are as shocked by their actions as anyone could be." I should say most are.

"Maybe, to an extent, it is the lack of understanding, sympathy, sense of diversity or equality shown by some in this country, that help alienate and radicalise such young men." This is daft.

[Phil H]

Maybe, to an extent, it is the lack of understanding, sympathy, sense of diversity or equality shown by some in this country, that help alienate and radicalise such young men."

This is daft.

Is it, Robert?

I am no liberal (small L) or libertarian -but seriously, what alternative do you propose to working with the ethnic communities? That is all my words were intended to suggest - working with them and helping them integrate and feel part of a wider community.

It doesn't help if you insist on taking one line from a wider post to comment on.

I would also point out that the immigrants now becoming significant elements of the population are Europeans, moving within the European Union - Poles etc. Those newcomers bring a very different set of cultural norms with them, but are much less obvious. Do you see them as not to be understood?welcomed, shown sympathy, treated in a diverse and equal way?

I ask with genuine interest in the response as I do not understand why you see my words as daft.

Phil

[Robert]

Phil, if someone wants to plant bombs that will kill scores of people, then that is entirely down to them.The guilt is all theirs. Pandering to them by showing them more "sympathy" etc etc etc will only make them worse.

If I can take another line from your post :

"When someone writes I have the misfortune of living in Britain I can only observe that you are one of the luckiest people on earth and millions would (and do) give much to take your place." So you don't see Britain as such a bad country then? So why are these people attacking the country which they profess to be citizens of? There is no excuse.

If you live in this country, you abide by its laws. If you are unwilling to do this then you either go elsewhere, or you go to prison.

[Errata]

If you live in this country, you abide by its laws. If you are unwilling to do this then you either go elsewhere, or you go to prison.

Right... and they will. That's how it works. Up to the point at which you commit a crime that invalidates your right to freedom, you get to walk around and do whatever moves you, like every other citizen or immigrant group. Now this may come as a shock, but sometimes, governments do things that are wrong, or are despicable in the eyes of it's residents. And people should be out in the streets calling them on it, expressing their disdain, their horror, their pain, whatever. The solution is not to tell them that if they don't like it they can get the hell out. If that was a good idea, and it could even remotely be managed, do you honestly think there would be black people here in the US? Or Britain? Or Jews or Catholics in either? Why is it okay for you to excoriate your government for pandering to immigrants, but it's not okay for immigrants to chastise the government for supporting a war that is killing a lot of innocent people? Building bombs is clearly not the answer, but what is so wrong with some honest disagreement? And how on earth do you function in this day and age without being able to separate the place you want to live for certain reason, and policies the government subscribes to? Guantanamo is not okay. Torture is not okay. Since evidently we aren't allowed to disagree with government policies without having to move, I have one question for you. Can I and the 200 million Americans like me who disagree with Guantanamo crash on your couch?

[Robert]

What in the name of heaven are you on about? Just how is blowing up people with bombs equivalent to expressing disdain, or honest disagreement, or chastising a government? Where have I said that criticising governments is wrong?

[Errata]

What in the name of heaven are you on about? Just how is blowing up people with bombs equivalent to expressing disdain, or honest disagreement, or chastising a government? Where have I said that criticising governments is wrong?

Not you. I'm sorry that was unclear. I used your quote to build off of, not to disagree with or even reference you. I was referencing the same statement Phil was. Foul on the play. Inappropriate citation.

[Phil H]

Robert it appears that you have simply not READ my post.

First:

I was not expressing sympathy for the bombers, but suggesting strongly a need to work WITh communuities, ethnic and minority groups to avoid - if possible - future tragedies. I had taken issue with the second poster's use of the word "tem" to describe (as it appeared) immigrants generally.

Second, you now write (commenting on what I said):

ME: "When someone writes I have the misfortune of living in Britain I can only observe that you are one of the luckiest people on earth and millions would (and do) give much to take your place." So you don't see Britain as such a bad country then? So why are these people attacking the country which they profess to be citizens of? There is no excuse.

YOU: If you live in this country, you abide by its laws. If you are unwilling to do this then you either go elsewhere, or you go to prison.

Look again at the context and you'll see it was the second poster's comment that I was taking issue with. SHE it appears regards living in Britain a misfortune. The remark was NEVER about the bombers.

We who live in Britain, whatever our momentary views on a particular issue or decision (or the weather) must admit that we live in one of the most affluent, freest, stable, safe and socially advanced (free education and health care, high level of welfare support etc) countries in the world. To regret that is, IMHO, foolish and/or misinformed and thoughtless.

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

"The ringleaders of an al-Qaeda backed British jihadi group have been found guilty of plotting the worst terror attack on UK soil.

The Birmingham-based gang planned to use eight suicide bombers, armed with guns, to cause “mass death” and “carnage” on the streets of Britain.

They planned to cause more damage than the 7/7 London bombings and wanted to carry out “another 9/11”.

Police believe had they been successful it would have been the largest terrorist atrocity on home soil.

Irfan Naseer, 31, Irfan Khalid, 27, and Ashik Ali, 27, were today found guilty of planning a terror campaign after a four and a half month trial at Woolwich Crown Court.

They were also guilty of raising money for terrorism and recruiting others for a terror act..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/9877193/Suicide-bomb-gang-guilty-of-plotting-worst-ever-terror-attack-in-Britain.html

Glad they were caught. Seems God saved the Queen and her countrymen.

Beowolf,

It's time this country shaped up.

We all know that freedom of expression is a cornerstone of democracy; we also know that totalitarian thought and regimes will stop at nothing to achieve their aims because they believe they have the one and only answer.

At this juncture, it is time to kick anyone out of the country involved with Islamic Jihadist movements, whether or not they are involved in bomb plots.

We've been here with Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Yugoslavia, The French Revolution, Pol Pot, and so forth. It only ends one way and that is killing people on the back of A Priori justification. These Islamic Jihadist movements are no different, and we tolerate them at our peril.

[Fleetwood Mac]

"These people" as you call them - were all born in the UK, had a right to live here and had received all the benefits of a state education, the health service etc.

Maybe, to an extent, it is the lack of understanding, sympathy, sense of diversity or equality shown by some in this country, that help alienate and radicalise such young men.

Firstly, they are not all born here.

Secondly, and more importantly, I'm sick to the eyeballs of people offering excuses for these lunatics who want to blow people up.

England is an extremely tolerant country, to the point of bending over backwards and taking it up the arse.

We need to get a grip, because history tells us that this won't have a happy ending.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Sorry for the rant - and I have my moments of anger too (who doesn't) - but rationally, TOLERANCE and understanding (what a Christian would call LOVE) is the only way.

Phil

Utter bollocks.

Christianity is irretreivably bound up with law and order.

For example, the concept of Rule of Law, as administered in England, is guided by John Locke's instruction that you and I have a duty to God to not harm our own bodies, and by extension our property; and to not harm anyone else's.

John Locke also placed a caveat on his version of the Rule of Law: intolerant of the intolerant. This is not something I would necessarily agree with, in fact in most cases I'd suggest that this caveat is a flaw in his construct; but in this case I'm going to make an exception and suggest that anyone involved in these movements, whether the receptionist, cleaner or bomb maker, be kicked out of the country to join like minded individuals in Pakistan and the like.

[The Good Michael]

Freedom to believe in what you want to is...sort of a good thing. There should be no freedom of religion that allows people to cling to outdated ethnic components of religion that go against the laws of the state such as, forcing women to wear certain things or to not have, on paper, absolutely equal rights and opportunities dependent upon education and skills and not upon gender. In fact, if we did away with all churches which just suck the money away from people and provide charity with caveats, we'd be a lot better off. Religion, like everything else, is in a constant state of change. When lunatics resist change to the extent they need to kill others...well we see what the world has come to from the god-fearing.

Mike