Did the darkness in Buck's Row play a significant effect in the action there?

[Doctored Whatsit]

The light was undoubtedly poor in Mitre Square yet he accomplished a great deal in what might be mere minutes, so light is apparently not a factor if you believe Jack killed Kate. So the Stride excuses are invalid.... as usual.

You have the beginnings of Jack in Bucks Row, you have the evolved killer in Hanbury. The rest?...well....lots of conjecture about that.

The coroner specifically asked Dr Sequiera whether the light in Mitre Square was sufficient for the disembowelling, and was told that it was.

The evidence of Eagle was that he passed through the middle of the Dutfield's Yard passageway, 9 feet wide, and because of the darkness, could not tell whether there was anything on the ground. Louis D said that when his horse shied, he looked down and saw something, but could not distinguish what it was, and prodded it with his whip. Only when he struck a match could he see that it was a woman. We can debate how dark it was, but clearly it was genuinely dark, and all identification thereafter was done with a light.

But certainly, the murder need not have been committed by JtR. My suggestion is merely that if it was JtR, it may have been too dark to safely and easily perform his swift slasherectomy as in other cases. He might not have been interrupted, but might just have decided it was impossible, and moved on to try again minutes later.

[Michael W Richards]

Probably true, I think.

The question in my mind is, did he then decide, next time I'll try disembowelling, or did he decide next time I'll pick somewhere a bit lighter, so I can see to disembowel properly? In my mind the one thought remains - he eviscerated Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, where the evidence suggests the light was better. So is it just a coincidence that in Buck's Row, which seems to have been darker, he made what might have been a failed attempt, and at Dutfield's Yard which was almost certainly the darkest of the five, he did not appear to have attempted anything of the sort? So, was the Stride murderer not JtR, or was he not interrupted, but simply realised he did not have sufficient light to do all that he wanted, and left unsated to kill again minutes later?

It seems that I am totally alone on this one - no matter!

The light was undoubtedly poor in Mitre Square yet he accomplished a great deal in what might be mere minutes, so light is apparently not a factor if you believe Jack killed Kate. So the Stride excuses are invalid.... as usual.

You have the beginnings of Jack in Bucks Row, you have the evolved killer in Hanbury. The rest?...well....lots of conjecture about that.

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer,

To be totally honest, I was hoping that you wouldn't see my use of the word "coincidence"!!!! Lol.

If ever I heard of a hope forlorn …

[Doctored Whatsit]

You´ll be amazed to see how many coincidences people can gulp down in the blink of an eye when they put their minds to it ...

Hi Christer,

To be totally honest, I was hoping that you wouldn't see my use of the word "coincidence"!!!! Lol.

[Fisherman]

So is it just a coincidence that in Buck's Row, which seems to have been darker, he made what might have been a failed attempt, and at Dutfield's Yard which was almost certainly the darkest of the five, he did not appear to have attempted anything of the sort?

You´ll be amazed to see how many coincidences people can gulp down in the blink of an eye when they put their minds to it ...

[Michael W Richards]

Something that has always niggled me a little about the murders, which may have been discussed here previously, but I've not seen it.

We know from the evidence given that the murder scene was a dark area of Buck's Row. Lechmere says he thought that Nichols' body was some unidentified object like a tarpaulin. Paul's evidence suggests that he didn't notice any body lying there, just Lechmere standing in the road. Neither Lechmere nor Paul noticed the severed throat or the blood. Furthermore, and I think quite significantly, PC Neil reported that Nichols' eyes were wide open. Despite checking Nichols closely to see if she was breathing etc, neither Paul nor Lechmere seemed to notice her wide-open eyes! Surely that would have been very relevant, but they didn't mention it, and therefore surely they couldn't have seen this. So Buck's Row was so dark that despite being up close to Nichols, neither man noticed the cut throat, the blood, or the wide open eyes. So Buck's Row was very dark indeed. Was it therefore so dark that JtR discovered that he didn't have enough light to be able to disembowel the corpse? His major violent surgery needed some light. Was he possibly not interrupted, but realised he was unable to do what he wanted to do? Did he decide "next time I'll leave it till a bit nearer dawn so I'll have more light"?

At Dutfield's Yard, Louis D saw Stride's body but it was so dark that even alongside it, he was unsure what it was. So, very, very dark again, and again no massive mutilations of the body. Once more, was it just too dark for the desired disembowelling, so that possibly JtR wasn't interrupted, but simply didn't have enough light to perpetrate his desired violence successfully. I would have thought that it would be quite impossible to mutilate a victim in the manner he wished, in near complete darkness. Did he just think "sod it, too dark!", and wandered off to try again shortly afterwards a few hundred yards away, where he had a bit more light?

Kelly was indoors, and JtR (if it was he) was not only not interrupted, but he made a big roaring fire to give himself light to work by. With light and time, maybe he showed what he really wanted to do to his victims.

All comments welcome.

I think this was the first of Jack the Rippers 2, perhaps 3, murders. And it reveals someone with intentions but also impatient. Is that due to lighting? Or the fact that he is in the street, a double ended open street, with a dead woman he just killed. Even if he wanted more...which I believe some wounds suggest, it was an amateur murderers methodology. That improves greatly based on the experience, and Annie is just about the quintessential Jack the Ripper success story.

[Doctored Whatsit]

AFter murdering Nicols he would have thought about it for a long time afterwards, and how he could make it better next time.

Probably true, I think.

The question in my mind is, did he then decide, next time I'll try disembowelling, or did he decide next time I'll pick somewhere a bit lighter, so I can see to disembowel properly? In my mind the one thought remains - he eviscerated Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, where the evidence suggests the light was better. So is it just a coincidence that in Buck's Row, which seems to have been darker, he made what might have been a failed attempt, and at Dutfield's Yard which was almost certainly the darkest of the five, he did not appear to have attempted anything of the sort? So, was the Stride murderer not JtR, or was he not interrupted, but simply realised he did not have sufficient light to do all that he wanted, and left unsated to kill again minutes later?

It seems that I am totally alone on this one - no matter!

AFter murdering Nicols he would have thought about it for a long time afterwards, and how he could make it better next time.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby, You think JtR could disembowel "by feel"? I really doubt it. It was so dark in Dutfield's Yard that Louis D didn't even realise that the shape at his feet was a woman until he struck a match. That is dark!

dark but not opaque. yes by feel and sight

[Fisherman]

On the other hand, Edward Spooner said that he could see it was the body of a woman before a match was struck. But of course he had been told that a woman had been murdered there, so had the advantage of knowing what he was looking at. Jack too would have had that advantage. Louis, Cross and Paul would not.

True. And instead of saying that it was very dark, Eagle and Diemschitz settled for "rather dark". All of which is of course very relative, and does in no way preclude that it would perhaps have been hard to excise organs aided by what little light there was.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Abby, You think JtR could disembowel "by feel"? I really doubt it. It was so dark in Dutfield's Yard that Louis D didn't even realise that the shape at his feet was a woman until he struck a match. That is dark!

On the other hand, Edward Spooner said that he could see it was the body of a woman before a match was struck. But of course he had been told that a woman had been murdered there, so had the advantage of knowing what he was looking at. Jack too would have had that advantage. Louis, Cross and Paul would not.

[Doctored Whatsit]

theres always some ambient light outside, especially in a city. besides, isnt it obvious that the ripper did alot of what he did by feel.

Hi Abby, You think JtR could disembowel "by feel"? I really doubt it. It was so dark in Dutfield's Yard that Louis D didn't even realise that the shape at his feet was a woman until he struck a match. That is dark!

[Fisherman]

I wouldn’t say that. It stopped before Cross got to her.

And then it started again …?

[Abby Normal]

Something that has always niggled me a little about the murders, which may have been discussed here previously, but I've not seen it.

We know from the evidence given that the murder scene was a dark area of Buck's Row. Lechmere says he thought that Nichols' body was some unidentified object like a tarpaulin. Paul's evidence suggests that he didn't notice any body lying there, just Lechmere standing in the road. Neither Lechmere nor Paul noticed the severed throat or the blood. Furthermore, and I think quite significantly, PC Neil reported that Nichols' eyes were wide open. Despite checking Nichols closely to see if she was breathing etc, neither Paul nor Lechmere seemed to notice her wide-open eyes! Surely that would have been very relevant, but they didn't mention it, and therefore surely they couldn't have seen this. So Buck's Row was so dark that despite being up close to Nichols, neither man noticed the cut throat, the blood, or the wide open eyes. So Buck's Row was very dark indeed. Was it therefore so dark that JtR discovered that he didn't have enough light to be able to disembowel the corpse? His major violent surgery needed some light. Was he possibly not interrupted, but realised he was unable to do what he wanted to do? Did he decide "next time I'll leave it till a bit nearer dawn so I'll have more light"?

At Dutfield's Yard, Louis D saw Stride's body but it was so dark that even alongside it, he was unsure what it was. So, very, very dark again, and again no massive mutilations of the body. Once more, was it just too dark for the desired disembowelling, so that possibly JtR wasn't interrupted, but simply didn't have enough light to perpetrate his desired violence successfully. I would have thought that it would be quite impossible to mutilate a victim in the manner he wished, in near complete darkness. Did he just think "sod it, too dark!", and wandered off to try again shortly afterwards a few hundred yards away, where he had a bit more light?

Kelly was indoors, and JtR (if it was he) was not only not interrupted, but he made a big roaring fire to give himself light to work by. With light and time, maybe he showed what he really wanted to do to his victims.

All comments welcome.

theres always some ambient light outside, especially in a city. besides, isnt it obvious that the ripper did alot of what he did by feel.

[Columbo]

Nope. It never stopped. It´s like the bleeding from Nichol´s neck when Mizen saw it.

I wouldn’t say that. It stopped before Cross got to her.