Did the darkness in Buck's Row play a significant effect in the action there?

[Doctored Whatsit]

You should not care a iot about whether or not you have anyone with you, as long as you are convinced yourself that you may be on to something. The only gut you have to trust is your own (although I like it when people align with my gut feelings... ) Go with it for as long as you believe in it. A question that will crop up sooner or later in this context: do you think that it is possible that the killer brought a light of sorts along with himself?

Hi Christer - interesting thoughts! Actually, I shouldn't care, I agree, but the very first time I read the account of the Stride murder, so many years ago, and how Louis D had to strike a match to identify that the shape beside him was a woman, I thought that there was no way that JtR could have completed anything remotely resembling a disembowelment. So, I am genuinely amazed that for all this time, the debate has been was JtR interrupted, or was it someone else who murdered Stride? As the years pass, and I re-read the evidence, my belief just gets stronger - sadly!

As for JtR carrying a light of some sort, well he may well have done, but I don't think he would have used it somewhere like Dutfield's Yard - too risky, I would imagine.

[Fiver]

I seem to have absolutely no-one with me on this, and yet given the evidence in Stride's case, I cannot see how JtR could possibly have disembowelled Stride in Pitch darkness where Louis D needed a light to even identify that the shape was a woman!

Your theory is certainly possible.

The Ripper did like working when it was very dark. Lighting for any of the locations would be a mix of phase of the moon, amount of cloud cover, available street lighting, and light from open windows.

[Fiver]

If Lechmere hid the wounds, then why would he hide th ones to the abdomen only, and leave the large gash in the neck visible? The clothes were pulled over the wounds in the abdomen as Paul was in place, and maybe the gash to the neck was also hidden. If Lechmere pulled the clothing down over the abdomen, he may also have seen to it that the neck wounds was covered by the dress.

Nichols clothes were pulled down by Robert Paul.

"Witness went with him, and saw a woman lying right across the gateway. Her clothes were raised almost up to her stomach." - Robert Paul

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer,

My comments that you mention in your first para above were in answer to Mark JD in #14 who actually did suggest that Lechmere could have slit Nichols' throat as Paul turned away. It was not anything that you said.

Ah - good. That explains that matter!

If Nichols was victim number one, there may well be an element of "you don't know what you can do until you try" about it. Maybe he just intended to inflict some abdominal cuts, and expanded his repertoire with experience later, maybe he wished to do more but was interrupted, maybe he discovered when he tried something for the first time, that he couldn't make a good job of it because there was insufficient light. We don't know.

In the first murder, Iīd agree. But he would reasonable have learnt from it. (Itīs another matter that I do not believe that Nichols WAS the fist victim).

For me, Dutfield's Yard is the more convincing of the two. Eagle said the passageway was dark, and when he walked through he couldn't be sure whether there was anything there or not. That is dark! Louis D is even more specific, making it clear that even up close he couldn't distinguish that the shape was a woman, until he struck a match. If we are to accept these statements, and they don't appear to have been queried, then there is no way JtR - if it was he - could have seen well enough to have disembowelled Stride. So I am very doubtful about the generally accepted suggestion that it was JtR and he was prevented from further mutilation because he was interrupted.

The problem is that Eagle did not compare to Mitre Square, just as Sequeria did not compare to Dutfields Yard. I do think that Strides murder scene may have been the darkest one, but I cannot say that this was so for sure. Maybe Sequeria would have said there was sufficient light too. Disembowelment as such can of course be carried out by a blind man, working by feel, so we are not likely to be able to say anything at all for certain in this department.

I think that Stride may have been murdered by someone else, or it was JtR and Stride led him into Dutfield's Yard because she had used it before, and when he got there he realised it was just too dark for all that he planned, so he just killed her, and then went looking for another victim to satisfy his blood-lust. Quite simply, I propose that it was too dark in Dutfield's Yard, and not that he was interrupted, and that possibly Nichols was similar, but not quite so dark, so he made an attempt but found it impossible.

My take on things is that the killer would have had many more targets than the ones who did fall prey to him, but aborted for various reasons on many occasions. I believe he killed to enable him to cut, and if he knew that he would not be able to cut, I do not think he would have cut in the first place. I think he was disturbed, simple as that.

I seem to have absolutely no-one with me on this, and yet given the evidence in Stride's case, I cannot see how JtR could possibly have disembowelled Stride in Pitch darkness where Louis D needed a light to even identify that the shape was a woman!

You should not care a iot about whether or not you have anyone with you, as long as you are convinced yourself that you may be on to something. The only gut you have to trust is your own (although I like it when people align with my gut feelings... ) Go with it for as long as you believe in it. A question that will crop up sooner or later in this context: do you think that it is possible that the killer brought a light of sorts along with himself?

[Fisherman]

Geez it begins again....

Nope. It never stopped. Itīs like the bleeding from Nicholīs neck when Mizen saw it.

[Columbo]

Something that has always niggled me a little about the murders, which may have been discussed here previously, but I've not seen it.

We know from the evidence given that the murder scene was a dark area of Buck's Row. Lechmere says he thought that Nichols' body was some unidentified object like a tarpaulin. Paul's evidence suggests that he didn't notice any body lying there, just Lechmere standing in the road. Neither Lechmere nor Paul noticed the severed throat or the blood. Furthermore, and I think quite significantly, PC Neil reported that Nichols' eyes were wide open. Despite checking Nichols closely to see if she was breathing etc, neither Paul nor Lechmere seemed to notice her wide-open eyes! Surely that would have been very relevant, but they didn't mention it, and therefore surely they couldn't have seen this. So Buck's Row was so dark that despite being up close to Nichols, neither man noticed the cut throat, the blood, or the wide open eyes. So Buck's Row was very dark indeed. Was it therefore so dark that JtR discovered that he didn't have enough light to be able to disembowel the corpse? His major violent surgery needed some light. Was he possibly not interrupted, but realised he was unable to do what he wanted to do? Did he decide "next time I'll leave it till a bit nearer dawn so I'll have more light"?

At Dutfield's Yard, Louis D saw Stride's body but it was so dark that even alongside it, he was unsure what it was. So, very, very dark again, and again no massive mutilations of the body. Once more, was it just too dark for the desired disembowelling, so that possibly JtR wasn't interrupted, but simply didn't have enough light to perpetrate his desired violence successfully. I would have thought that it would be quite impossible to mutilate a victim in the manner he wished, in near complete darkness. Did he just think "sod it, too dark!", and wandered off to try again shortly afterwards a few hundred yards away, where he had a bit more light?

Kelly was indoors, and JtR (if it was he) was not only not interrupted, but he made a big roaring fire to give himself light to work by. With light and time, maybe he showed what he really wanted to do to his victims.

All comments welcome.

You would have to take into account the ambient light that was probably coming from the slaughter houses, nearby businesses, etc. Most focus on the light that illuminated the far side of the road but there was probably some other faint light sources. As far as the PC needing his lantern, that would make sense as Nichols was lying down had multiple layers of clothes that probably helped disguise the neck somewhat. Paul and Cross just did a a cursory look and touch, not much of an examination.

[Columbo]

Fair enough. My point is that the killer would have made such a mistake one time, tops. And to be frank, I donīt think he did it even once. Oh, and of course I donīt think that Lechmere thought it was a tarpaulin at all, since he in my view knew it was a woman; one that he had himself killed.

Geez it begins again....

[Doctored Whatsit]

What I turned against was mainly how you wrote that "I am as sure as I can be that Lechmere couldn't have pulled out a knife,slashed Nichols' throat, wiped off the blood, and replaced the knife in his pocket in a trice as Paul turned away, totally unaware of the violence", as if it had been suggested that Paul was in place outside Browns as it all went down. My take on things is thjat Lechmere would have had a minute or so to cut the neck, stash the knife and step back out into the street before Paul arrived, and so in my world, Paul need not have witnessed any of these things.

You say that Paul also missed out on the blood, the gash in the throat and possibly the open eyes. There may well be plausibel explanations to these matters. You yourself say that the open eyes is a mere possibility, and I beleive that boils down to how it seems the eyes can open late in the process. As for the blood, we know that all the blood Neil saw wwas underneath the neck, and so it may well have been hidden from sight from some positions. Moreover, although we know that Neil saw the gash, I don't think that we can bank on it being on display as Paul was in place. If Lechmere hid the wounds, then why would he hide th ones to the abdomen only, and leave the large gash in the neck visible? The clothes were pulled over the wounds in the abdomen as Paul was in place, and maybe the gash to the neck was also hidden. If Lechmere pulled the clothing down over the abdomen, he may also have seen to it that the neck wounds was covered by the dress.

Then why is it thatg Neil saw it, you probably ask. My answer: Because Paul pulled the dress down after the examination, just as he left, and maybe that was what pulled the clothing away from over the neck.

I think this is a very real possibility since I donīt think that the carmen would have missed a one or two inch wide gash in the neck.

As for the light issue, I am still where I always was: If light was an absolute requirement for the killer, then he would not kill where no light was to be had. I could be right and I could be wrong, but that is how I see it.

Hi Christer,

My comments that you mention in your first para above were in answer to Mark JD in #14 who actually did suggest that Lechmere could have slit Nichols' throat as Paul turned away. It was not anything that you said.

If Nichols was victim number one, there may well be an element of "you don't know what you can do until you try" about it. Maybe he just intended to inflict some abdominal cuts, and expanded his repertoire with experience later, maybe he wished to do more but was interrupted, maybe he discovered when he tried something for the first time, that he couldn't make a good job of it because there was insufficient light. We don't know.

For me, Dutfield's Yard is the more convincing of the two. Eagle said the passageway was dark, and when he walked through he couldn't be sure whether there was anything there or not. That is dark! Louis D is even more specific, making it clear that even up close he couldn't distinguish that the shape was a woman, until he struck a match. If we are to accept these statements, and they don't appear to have been queried, then there is no way JtR - if it was he - could have seen well enough to have disembowelled Stride. So I am very doubtful about the generally accepted suggestion that it was JtR and he was prevented from further mutilation because he was interrupted.

I think that Stride may have been murdered by someone else, or it was JtR and Stride led him into Dutfield's Yard because she had used it before, and when he got there he realised it was just too dark for all that he planned, so he just killed her, and then went looking for another victim to satisfy his blood-lust. Quite simply, I propose that it was too dark in Dutfield's Yard, and not that he was interrupted, and that possibly Nichols was similar, but not quite so dark, so he made an attempt but found it impossible.

I seem to have absolutely no-one with me on this, and yet given the evidence in Stride's case, I cannot see how JtR could possibly have disembowelled Stride in Pitch darkness where Louis D needed a light to even identify that the shape was a woman!

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer,

Your point of view is understood. But Paul also didn't see the gashed throat, or the blood, and possibly not the open eyes which were evident about two minutes later when PC Neil arrived. So the area was very dark. It is difficult to tell from the medical evidence whether JtR intended evisceration, but perhaps couldn't see well enough, or whether he was content with a few random slashes of the abdomen, or whether he heard someone approaching and stopped. (We can guess your answer). If he intended to disembowel Nichols, as he did with later cases, he failed totally.

As to making the mistake only once or not at all, I think that JtR would have been relying on his victims to a certain extent to choose a location, as they had done these things many times before. If he approached Stride, and she said "OK, in here" and led him into Dutfield's Yard, he may well have found it too dark for what he intended. The witness statements all say that visibility was almost non-existent.

What I turned against was mainly how you wrote that "I am as sure as I can be that Lechmere couldn't have pulled out a knife,slashed Nichols' throat, wiped off the blood, and replaced the knife in his pocket in a trice as Paul turned away, totally unaware of the violence", as if it had been suggested that Paul was in place outside Browns as it all went down. My take on things is thjat Lechmere would have had a minute or so to cut the neck, stash the knife and step back out into the street before Paul arrived, and so in my world, Paul need not have witnessed any of these things.

You say that Paul also missed out on the blood, the gash in the throat and possibly the open eyes. There may well be plausibel explanations to these matters. You yourself say that the open eyes is a mere possibility, and I beleive that boils down to how it seems the eyes can open late in the process. As for the blood, we know that all the blood Neil saw wwas underneath the neck, and so it may well have been hidden from sight from some positions. Moreover, although we know that Neil saw the gash, I don't think that we can bank on it being on display as Paul was in place. If Lechmere hid the wounds, then why would he hide th ones to the abdomen only, and leave the large gash in the neck visible? The clothes were pulled over the wounds in the abdomen as Paul was in place, and maybe the gash to the neck was also hidden. If Lechmere pulled the clothing down over the abdomen, he may also have seen to it that the neck wounds was covered by the dress.

Then why is it thatg Neil saw it, you probably ask. My answer: Because Paul pulled the dress down after the examination, just as he left, and maybe that was what pulled the clothing away from over the neck.

I think this is a very real possibility since I donīt think that the carmen would have missed a one or two inch wide gash in the neck.

As for the light issue, I am still where I always was: If light was an absolute requirement for the killer, then he would not kill where no light was to be had. I could be right and I could be wrong, but that is how I see it.

[Doctored Whatsit]

I thought a central element of this crime scene was that the abdominal wounds were covered up and only discovered at the mortuary. Doesn't that imply that there was enough light for them to have been seen otherwise?

M.

Hi, The comments about visibility being almost non-existent were about the Stride murder. In Buck's Row, my suggestion is that maybe the light was insufficient for the disembowelling which he performed elsewhere, but as I wrote in #18 he just performed some random slashes, being unable to see well enough to do better (or worse!). Purely from witness statements, I get the impression that Buck's Row was very dark, and Dutfield's Yard even darker, and both of these were darker than the other murder sites.

[Mark J D]

The witness statements all say that visibility was almost non-existent.

I thought a central element of this crime scene was that the abdominal wounds were covered up and only discovered at the mortuary. Doesn't that imply that there was enough light for them to have been seen otherwise?

M.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Fair enough. My point is that the killer would have made such a mistake one time, tops. And to be frank, I donīt think he did it even once. Oh, and of course I donīt think that Lechmere thought it was a tarpaulin at all, since he in my view knew it was a woman; one that he had himself killed.

Hi Christer,

Your point of view is understood. But Paul also didn't see the gashed throat, or the blood, and possibly not the open eyes which were evident about two minutes later when PC Neil arrived. So the area was very dark. It is difficult to tell from the medical evidence whether JtR intended evisceration, but perhaps couldn't see well enough, or whether he was content with a few random slashes of the abdomen, or whether he heard someone approaching and stopped. (We can guess your answer). If he intended to disembowel Nichols, as he did with later cases, he failed totally.

As to making the mistake only once or not at all, I think that JtR would have been relying on his victims to a certain extent to choose a location, as they had done these things many times before. If he approached Stride, and she said "OK, in here" and led him into Dutfield's Yard, he may well have found it too dark for what he intended. The witness statements all say that visibility was almost non-existent.

[Fisherman]

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a cure for Lechmerianism.

Itīll be much like unwarranted self-confidence with some, then. Terrible ailment, that one.

[Fisherman]

Lechmere saw a shape which he thought might be a tarpaulin, not a human being, and had to take a closer inspection. Pitch darkness is not being suggested. Nichols was victim number one of the canonical five, so maybe JtR didn't realise until it was too late that he needed more light, or maybe evisceration was an afterthought, not originally planned. The women probably chose where to take their clients, so JtR might well not have realised that Stride was taking him to somewhere too dark to do his evil deed. There is clear evidence from Dr Sequeira at the inquest that there was sufficient light in Mitre Square for JtR to perform all that he did.

The point I am trying to make is simply that of the canonical five, the available evidence suggests that these were the two darkest places of the five, and that JtR would have needed some fair light to be able to do his worst.

Fair enough. My point is that the killer would have made such a mistake one time, tops. And to be frank, I donīt think he did it even once. Oh, and of course I donīt think that Lechmere thought it was a tarpaulin at all, since he in my view knew it was a woman; one that he had himself killed.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Lechmerian that I am, I am not quite able to shake the horrifying mental image of him throttling Nichols for not quite long enough and beginning to mutilate her while she was merely unconscious; being interrupted by Paul and covering up the cuts; and only then rapidly slashing her throat as Paul turned to walk away... Closed eyes, no blood, and that tiny trace of heart or lung movement: all because she was still alive at that point...

Horrible. Someone please show that it can't have happened that way...

M.

Well, I can't prove it, of course, but I am as sure as I can be that Lechmere couldn't have pulled out a knife,slashed Nichols' throat, wiped off the blood, and replaced the knife in hiis pocket in a trice as Paul turned away, totally unaware of the violence. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a cure for Lechmerianism.