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  • Self Defense?

    Sorry that this will be kind of long.

    I live in the U.S. in Minnesota, where in a community called Little Falls an absolute train wreck of a story happened over Thanksgiving weekend. On Thanksgiving, at around noon, Byron David Smith, age 64, was alone and tinkering in the basement of his rural home. He had supposedly had up to ten break-ins to his home, though he'd only reported one to police back in October. While he was down there, he heard glass breaking upstairs and grabbed a couple of guns he had stored in the basement, a Mini-14 rifle (.233 calliber) and a .22 revolver which he attached to his hip. Footsteps then came down the basement stairs, and before he saw the invader's face Smith shot him in the legs with the rifle. Nicholas Brady, age 17, came tumbling down. Smith then advanced on the boy and shot him again in the face, killing him. He later told police, "I wanted him dead," apparently driven to his witt's end by the number of break-ins to his house. Smith then placed Brady's body on a tarp and dragged him into another room in the basement, then sat down in a chair, probably with his heart pounding, to ponder what had just happened. "Holy (blank), what do I do now?" As he sat there, after a few minutes, a second set of footsteps was heard upstairs, which then again came down the basement stairs. And again, Smith fired when he saw the legs. This time a girl, Haile Kifer, age 18, cousin to Nicholas Brady, came tumbling down. Smith told police that he tried to chamber another round to shoot her again, but that his rifle jammed, at which point the wounded girl laughed at him. That angered him, so he pulled his .22 pistol and nearly emptied it into her chest. He then dragged her, gasping and still alive, into the room where her cousin lay dead, and then put the pistol barrel under her chin and fired the last round in what he told police was a "clean kill shot" to put her out of her misery.

    Smith then waited until the next day to take any further action, with the bodies in his basement. He called a neighbor to inquire about finding a lawyer, then asked the neighbor to call the police for him. He told the police that he hadn't want to bother them on Thanksgiving. He was arrested and charged with murder. There is now a huge controversy in the local news here over whether Smith was justified in his actions in shooting two invading burglars in self defense, or whether he went way over the line.

    The two teens were out driving around on Thanksgiving when they should have been with their family, and their car was found parked on the road near Smith's house. Hale Kifer had a history of drug abuse. The theory is that she and her cousin were in search of drugs in elderly peoples' homes.

    People are speculating all over the place. Surely the girl must have heard the shots when the boy was shot. Why would she then go down into the basement to suffer the same fate? I think the boy went in first and the girl was waiting in the car, heater and radio both running full blast, so that she didn't hear the shots. After several minutes went by, she went in to see what was taking her cousin so long. People are also scoffing at Smith's claim that the girl laughed at him after being shot. I can think of several explanations for that. Maybe she gave a short laugh of relief upon seeing that his rifle had jammed. Or just maybe, she may have been high on drugs and feeling no pain. Maybe she only fell down because her leg was blown out from under her and when she looked up from the basement floor, she saw not a man holding a rifle but a giant pink rabbit holding a giant candy cane. Funniest thing she'd ever seen in he life. So she laughed. Pure speculation, but we will never know. I'll be very interested in the toxicology reports.

    So the big question is- did Smith justifiably act in self defense or is he a murderer? Clearly, he went way too far. But just as clearly, those kids were committing a felony and should not have broken into his house. If he had waited until each of them was two seconds farther down the stairs and killed them both with a single head shot, this argument would not be happening. In America we have the right to defend ourselves against criminal attack with deadly force if we feel its warranted, but Smith went farther after the threat was nullified and executed those kids. Were the kids on drugs? Is Smith at 64 beginning to experience sinility? So many wild cards. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

    Any thoughts?
    Last edited by kensei; 11-28-2012, 12:51 PM.

  • #2
    seems to me the guy was just itching to shoot someone. Manslaughter at least.

    Mike
    huh?

    Comment


    • #3
      I haven't looked into this case at all, so don't know the specifics, but my opinion is, if someone enters your house illegally, they are yours to do with as you please, which includes shooting them, stuffing them and dressing them in outfits if that's what you want.

      Their rights end when they illegally violate your right to a safe home environment.

      Would I personally have gone as far as this guy went and shot them while they were down? No. I wouldn't waste the ammo. But his house, his rules. They didn't have to be there.

      If I were on the jury, I wouldn't vote to convict.

      Let all Oz be agreed;
      I need a better class of flying monkeys.

      Comment


      • #4
        once he had gunned them down, they were incapacitated so to speak. It could be argued ( and i could see why ) that he wasnt required to go the extra mile ! if i knew the facts and were impartial ( as i guess i am ), then i would say he is a "trigger happy" individual who probably enjoyed the power it gave him.....to do the second so soon after the 1st, and not show any remorse or natural human sentiment for having taken someones life, then i guess i would say he needs locking up himself......but will a jury say the same in the US....i have my doubts. We had a similar case some years ago where a farmer in the UK was convicted of a similar thing. He shot the guy as he was fleeing through the window.....it was argued his life was no longer under threat as the guy was leaving the building....so he was convicted of manslaughter i seem to recall....i can see both sides of the argument...

        Comment


        • #5
          How many shots did he need to kill the female? Wow, this guy's eyes are worse than mine.

          Comment


          • #6
            As opposed to killing the male? Males and females generally take the same number of shots to kill, depending on where you hit them.

            Let all Oz be agreed;
            I need a better class of flying monkeys.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Ally

              He seems to have taken two shots to kill the male, or one serious shot (discounting the legs). But with the female, he nearly emptied his bullets into her chest and she was still alive.

              Comment


              • #8
                Women are tougher to kill than men I guess. You guys fold easy.

                Let all Oz be agreed;
                I need a better class of flying monkeys.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Heard an update today. The kids' car had prescription drugs in it stolen from other residences. This was not their first crime. However, the feeling amongst the public seems to be that Smith will be doing some serious time. His picture in the newspaper appears to be his mug shot, while those of the kids are happy smiling ones and they are definitely very nice looking kids. Appearances, though, are of course the least important thing about people. It's a tragedy all around and I don't feel that justice is being done in any way.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've read numerous articles about this case. I think Smith's actions far exceeded reasonable self-defense.

                    The teenagers were unarmed, and Smith shot and incapacitated both of them with no resistance on their part. Even in his own telling of the shootings they didn't resist. His deliberate execution of the 18 year old girl who was down with multiple gunshots, gasping to breathe, and was clearly no threat to him is particularly heinous. By his own admission he deliberately executed her.

                    He does not have that right. He has the right to reasonable self-defense, not to the cold-blooded execution of seriously wounded suspects, one of whom was a minor, both of whom were teenagers. The Court should have dealt with them. But no court would have imposed the Death Penalty on two high school students caught stealing medications from homes. (Well, maybe in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but not in the western world.)

                    I'm not defending the burglary, of course it was wrong, but once the suspects were wounded and down and clearly no threat to him, Smith by law should have called the police. The fact that he instead executed the suspects, then sat in his house with 2 dead teenagers in his basement demonstrates that he knew he had exceeded his right to reasonable self-defense and committed murder. In his future trial this will failure to report the incident will be pointed to as 'consciousness of guilt'.

                    I don't believe the story that "the girl laughed" after she was shot the first time. What high school aged girl would laugh upon being shot?? That's crazy and obviously a lie.

                    What I think happened is that the girl saw a man with a gun pointed at her and possibly saw her 17 yr old cousin lying dead on the floor and she SCREAMED. Smith shot her to shut her up.

                    Then he emptied a whole clip of bullets into the wounded girl to vent his rage. Then he deliberately executed her instead of calling an ambulance because he had already shot the boy and didn't want the girl to live to ever testify in court. It wasn't a "mercy killing", that's b.s. "Mercy" would have been calling 911.

                    Then Smith sat around trying to figure out what to do and trying to make up a convincing story to account for two dead unarmed teenagers in his basement. When the police came to him a day later, his excuse for not reporting the burglary, shooting, and dead bodies is that he "didn't want to bother the police on Thanksgiving."

                    Yeah, right.

                    Best regards,
                    Archaic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Was it self-defense? No. Did he have the right to kill the little criminal dirtbags? Yep. They broke into his house. Of course the law might disagree, but the law and what's right have never been necessarily the same. Just because what he did was illegal (maybe) doesn't mean it wasn't right.

                      They broke into his home, exercising free will to violate the sanctity of his house. They made the choice that got them killed. They picked the wrong house to hit. The fault for their death lies entirely with them.

                      Let all Oz be agreed;
                      I need a better class of flying monkeys.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think this case illustrates the problem with the 'right to bear arms' law.

                        This guy was obviously outraged by the invasion of his home and he acted out that rage to its full extent.

                        I suppose he could have something similar with a baseball bat but I think the first round of gunshots stopped these youngsters in their tracks, rendering them almost helpless in terms of fighting back.

                        I'm with Archaic. He did not have the right to 'finish them off' and I would say that shooting someone in the face is pretty personal, not self defence.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This might seem nit-picky but I'd just like to express some thoughts on two of the minor details. There are all kinds of people in the world with all kinds of thought processes, and not having been there ourselves we cannot assume anything. I didn't know any of the people involved, and everything I know of them is what's been in the news. That said, on to speculation, which is all we can do:

                          First, Smith telling the police that he waited to call them because he didn't want to bother them on Thanksgiving. That sounds ridiculous on the face of it, but I have elderly relatives and I have heard some of them say some pretty irrational things in casual conversation. I can actually see an older guy who had- I don't know, how to say it?- a "relaxed brain" maybe, actually think that. The kids are dead. They won't be any more or less dead tomorrow. Why bother the nice police officers on Thanksgiving? I know it's messed up, but I don't think it's completely implausible. It is sad though, that both Smith and the two kids were not sitting down with their families at noon on Thanksgiving.

                          Second, the claim of the girl laughing. As I said before, there are possible reasons why this might be true. Again, I know nothing about this girl. But I do know that there have been far worse crimes committed by teenage girls even younger than her, in cases where their parents believed them to be sweet innocent angels. We do not know what kind of mind this girl- who had a history of drug abuse- had. I myself experienced some pretty severe bullying in school. It can be so vicious that it makes you ponder whether someone is actually evil. If such a person were shot while committing a crime, and then saw the gun jam, might such a mind muster a laugh even while in pain and fear? HA! What you gonna do now, old man? That's scenario number one. Scenario number two might be that she was more on the timid side and was quite terrified at what was happening, but gave a slight little laugh of hope when she saw the gun jam. Oh- maybe I'm not going to die after all. And as I said before, scenario number three would be if she was on drugs at the time. If she was, all bets are off. She could have been in absolute la-la land. I think that either of those scenarios is more likely or at least as likely as with the fast pace of what was happening Smith was thinking ahead to "I can't let her testify."

                          I'm not saying that Smith was at all justified in his level of violence. He did go far over the top beyond what is justified. But in the things he told police that people are finding implausible- they DO sound implausible, yet he still said them. Why shoot yourself in the foot by saying crazy sounding things unless you really mean them? I really think he gave an honest account of his own thought process and his own interpretation of what happened.

                          (By the way, I took the term "relaxed brain" from Sylvester Stallone in "Rocky 2." "Yo, I got like a relaxed brain, but I ain't punchy.")
                          Last edited by kensei; 11-29-2012, 11:10 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Couple of further thoughts-
                            I heard a caller to a local radio show point out that police are not trained to shoot to wound. They are trained to aim for the body and to kill, to put an assailant down as quickly as possible, because a criminal that's determined enough or crazy or on drugs or whatever won't stop at being shot in the arm or the leg. That's good advice when you're in your home just minding your own business and suddenly some total stranger breaks in and comes toward you. You have no time to prepare, and suddenly it's on, it's happening. You don't have time to assess. You must assume that the person means you harm. Just because you don't immediately see a weapon doesn't mean they don't have one concealed. Hesitate for even a second to try and make sense of the situation and it could cost you your life. That's why it's legal to shoot home invaders.

                            Smith admitting that he shot the girl in the chest because she laughed and made him mad, and then finishing her off with a head shot to end her suffering instead of calling her an ambulance, are what will likely send him to prison. He put a combat round into her leg, but only .22s into her chest. I say "only," and I mean there's no good bullet to be shot with, but .22s are very small. She might have survived. I heard a story about a cop who was shot multiple times in the chest with a .22 and survived, and while he was in the ambulance he actually coughed up one of the bullets.

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                            • #15
                              Whatever the moral side...I guess "self defence" ends when they're no longer a threat...So no matter what you should be able to do,once they're incapacitated you can't claim it?

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