Richard III & the Car Park

[Phil H]

Large parts of Hadrian's Wall have never been lost - parts of Housesteads Fort, in a fairly remote central section, was as late as the C17th a bandit fort. It has also long been used as a quarry for the facing stones - wall is in fact a rubble and concrete core faced with squared, rectangular quarried stone hich were subsequently looted and from which many local farm buildings are constructed.

There was also no re-use of the site after around 400AD, so no build up of rubbish, no additional layers, no "burial". Hence where it still exists at all, it is reasonably close to the suface. At "Vindolanda" parts of the old civilan settlement outside the fort walls are waterlogged and created a perfect anaerobic environment - so they have found leather tent fragments (unique) lots of shoes and sandals (caligae in the military sense) and most famously, the Vindolanda tablets.

These are the first examples to be found and read of Roman notebooks and letters made of wood bark and written on in ink (as against the writing tablets using inset wax and a pointed scriber). Over 1,000 fragments have been excavated. So we have fascinating bureaucratic records of sick soldiers, delivery of underpants and socks from home, invitations to birthday parties and a reference to the local tribesmen as "brittunculi" - (little Brits).

Also found are parts of a large prefabricated building which may have been constructed as a "palace" for Hadrian during his visit.

On an urban site which has been re-used, Roman remains can be some 8 feet below the modern ground level. In a cellar under my childhood home in Lincoln, lay pillars from the external portico of the basilica and forum of the Roman town of Lindum Colonia. To the rear, in another garden, stands part of the brick wall of the same complex still standing to a height of some 20 feet. At the end of the street, still spanning the road and navigated by traffic is the north gate of the Roman town, but its footings, visible to one side, are again around 8 feet below the modern surface.

Phil H

[Phil H]

Right. Because they love recruiting high school drop-outs, who were dishonorably discharged from the marines.

I think there is sufficient evidence to show he dropped out as backstory for his strange trip to Russia which makes most sense as a cover for an intelligence operation. Note the lack of interest from the US authorities on his return.

Oswald knew just what he meant by "Patsy" and it wasn't your interpretation - it was fall-guy. Note the lawyer he asked to be contacted.

Without help, Oswald could not have known that the Presidential procession would pass so close to the TBD; had it used the intended route he would have been too far away to shoot. He was not on the 5th (US) floor at the appropriate time, but having a coke in the lunch area.

I can go on endlessly about this - but this in NOT the right thread.

Phil H

[Steve S]

Having just finished Stephen King's "11-22-63"..and read Garrison's years ago....I still don't know ......Back to Richard,I quite agree on "We speak no Treason"

[Sally]

Oswald

I can go on endlessly about this - but this in NOT the right thread.

No, but it's an interesting topic - perhaps somebody should start a thread? Or is there one already?

[Errata]

That looks like a buttress up against the south wall.

So.... these two skeletons are what - 9, 10m apart? Not really next to each other are they? Imagine what might happen if we had an open area excavation instead. Then, instead of two skeletons, we might have a dozen.

Then the one female burial discovered might not look so significant. All a matter of perspective.

This would make more sense to me if there were more skeletons. I mean, I figure an abbot or two has to be buried there somewhere, and it would be supremely weird for them to have carefully removed all the church hotshots to a new location before destroying the building, but not Richard. Although potentially I could see the woman being left, depending on her identity.

We can realistically rule out the idea that she was some Saint or Martyr interred there for the sake of indulgences right? I mean, that kind of knowledge would have survived right?

[Phil H]

Errata - the areas between the trenches which have not been explored could be littered with bodies for all we know.

Phil H

[Errata]

Errata - the areas between the trenches which have not been explored could be littered with bodies for all we know.

Phil H

Yes, but I want to know NOW.

[RivkahChaya]

The last thing I'm going to post on the subject:

I think there is sufficient evidence to show he [Oswald] dropped out [of high school] as backstory for his strange trip to Russia which makes most sense as a cover for an intelligence operation.

No, it doesn't. It makes him a weirdo, and that's no cover for an FBI operative. They need to blend in with the paint, not flake.

Anyway, he dropped out of high school in 1955. Kennedy was the junior senator from Massachusetts in 1955, having just been elected two years earlier. No one then knew he would be president in 1963. There was still the intervening 1956 election before the one in 1960.

If you wanted to guess, in 1956, who would be president in 1963, the best guess would be Governor of Massachusetts (R), Christian Herter; second best, VP Richard Nixon. Eisenhower had had a heart attack, and was expected to decline to run again. Richard Nixon was very partison, and the republicans would not run the VP for president, but rather choose a more moderate candidate, with a better civil rights record, who would win, and then run for a second term. In any event, if Eisenhower did run, he wasn't expected to ask Nixon to be his running mate again. It was a surprise when he did. That is why 1960 was up for grabs. Had the republicans been running an incumbent, they could have won in 1960.

The 1960 election was very, very close. Nixon won more states, but Kennedy won more electoral votes, and neither won a majority of the popular vote, because an independent candidate won two states. The popular vote was 49.7% for Kennedy, 49.5% for Nixon.

If someone was planning to assassinate Kennedy back in 1955, it was pretty sloppy to allow the election to be that close. If just a few election workers had screwed up, and caused some precincts to get thrown out, it could have gone the other way.

And, a lot of people knew the motorcade had changed routes. Otherwise, why were spectators lined up on the correct route to watch?

[RivkahChaya]

But we totally faked the moon landing nine times. That's my favorite. I know people who have said that the moon landing was fake, and I said "Charlie Duke said "Why would we fake it NINE times? Which I think is a fair question." and they said "We went to the moon nine times??!? The truly credulous are never dull, god bless em.

I told my husband this story, and he laughed so hard, he could barely catch his breath.

[Errata]

On an urban site which has been re-used, Roman remains can be some 8 feet below the modern ground level. In a cellar under my childhood home in Lincoln, lay pillars from the external portico of the basilica and forum of the Roman town of Lindum Colonia. To the rear, in another garden, stands part of the brick wall of the same complex still standing to a height of some 20 feet. At the end of the street, still spanning the road and navigated by traffic is the north gate of the Roman town, but its footings, visible to one side, are again around 8 feet below the modern surface.

Phil H

I read somewhere that one of the potential side effects of time travel is highly localized molecular instability, so that some guy with a time machine in his basement could come back and find his house swallowed whole. Which prompts me to ask, did you know anyone on your block with a TARDIS?

[RivkahChaya]

"Mom, I'll be playing over by the external portico of the basilica-- no, wait, I'll be at the North gate. Home by dinner."

Man, my cousins and I found an abandoned subway branch stop in Manhattan, and we thought we'd made the archeological find of the century. Turned out everyone already knew about. Nobody mentioned it, because it really isn't very interesting after a couple of days.

[Phil H]

Quite seriously; growing up living in the od part of lLincoln (a city with a history stretching back 2,000 years), with a cathedral (one of finest in the country) and a Norman castle, at one end of the street, a Roman arch and bits of wall at the other, and Roman remains in the basement, DID shape me in major ways. I am sure that my passion for history has its origins in being surrounded by such things and asking the questions that naturally arise - which is older? which came first?

And yes, in the 50s, after watching episodes of Robin hood on TV, friends and I would recreate the swordfights all over the exterior of the cathedral - as if it was a film set!

But NO TARDIS!! But I was about 13 when the first Dr Who episode played - I think on the weekend that JF Kennedy was killed, coincidentally.

Rivkah - I don't accept your certainties and bland statements re LHO for one moment. You strike me as someone in somewhat desperate denial. Flat, unsupported claims help no one in a complex case like the Kennedy assassination - and what have the 50s to do with Oswald's eventual role (whatever it might have been) in the events of Dallas?

Oswald DID blend in with the paint - in Japan working with the spyplanes; on his return to Texas - but then look at who he worked for and his contacts and with whom THEY were associated.... Look at his activities in New Orleans - which was what attracted Jim Garrison's attention.

Sorry Rivkah, in this case the lady doth protest too much.

Phil H

[Sally]

Yes, but I want to know NOW.

Hi Errata

Chances are that an open area excavation would reveal a number of skeletal remains. It is highly improbable that the two discovered either were, or are, the only remains buried in the church.

Even allowing for disturbance - which has evidently occurred at some point - the very fact that two have been located strongly suggests that others have survived the test of time.

We are unlikely to find out however, as it would mean taking up the car park - the trenches have been targetted specifically to locate the site of the church and to have a go at finding Richard based on historic sources - that's what I heard anyway and I see no reason to doubt it in the circumstances. That's why two out of three trenches are in the same area - give the archaeologists the best chance of hitting gold. Looks like it might have paid off - but we should have no doubt: assuming earlier records - historic accounts, Speed's map - were correct, and subsequent activity on the site had not destroyed the stratigraphy, there was a pretty good chance of finding 'Richard'. The lady is a bonus.

[Sally]

Moon

I told my husband this story, and he laughed so hard, he could barely catch his breath.

Rivkah - I shared a house with a woman once who insisted that the famous televised moon landing was fake because 'you could see the set wobbling'

She wouldn't be persuaded otherwise.

[Sally]

As a further example, there's believed to be a roman basilica directly under the floor of Chichester Cathedral, and in fact, part of a mosaic floor can be seen at no great depth via a viewing window...at Fishbourne, just a couple of miles along the road the mosaic floors are a little deeper down...but not perhaps as far as you'd expect...alas parts have been damaged by (it is thought) medieval ridge and furrow ploughing...

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave, I wasn't aware that there was a Roman basilica under the cathedral, do you have a source for that information?