Richard III & the Car Park

[RivkahChaya]

To this day I can't go in Westminster. I have been taught that it is disrespectful in the extreme to step on graves, and the early childhood training stuck to such a degree that I can't bring myself to more that peek through windows.

Are you a cohen? I've been to plenty of funerals, and it's a simple matter of walking around the areas where the actual bodies are buried. I'm trying to remember Westminster-- isn't it possible to walk a path between the caskets?

I remember my uncle once going to a friend's father's funeral and saying the graveside kaddish, as a mitzvah, because his friend was a cohen (a katz, actually), and couldn't go to the cemetery.

We's just plain folk.

[Sally]

Thanks Phil - but was it in fact a skeleton? Or only some bones belonging to a female? Because if the latter, it could be intrusive. In which case, it may have no demonstrable stratigraphic relationship with the male skeleton whatever.

The site once contained a church, burials would have occurred outside that church as well as within. The site has been reworked by subsequent activity. The bones may very well not be in situ.

Archaeology eh? Gotta love it.

[RivkahChaya]

Thanks Phil - but was it in fact a skeleton? Or only some bones belonging to a female? Because if the latter, it could be intrusive. In which case, it may have no demonstrable stratigraphic relationship with the male skeleton whatever.

If they know it's female, it's pretty complete, or at least a pelvis. Although, I suppose it could be a female pelvis, and some other bones they assume go with it, but could be from a small, or young male. Or even another female.

They'll probably put it together to see if it appears to be one skeleton-- that is, one person, and then whatever technique they use to date the "Richard" skeleton, they'll use on the other one. If carbon or fluorine dating puts it at a different time period, then they don't need to do any further testing.

No obvious cause of death on the female skeleton?

[Sally]

Right - disarticulated remains of a female, in the same general area of the church (chancel) but not in exactly the same place, so not next to or with the male remains - 'Richard' comes from the purported choir, the mystery lady from the presbytery. Those are probably accurate estimations, later Med churches are fairly uniform architecturally for liturgical reasons.

The female remains, assuming we are looking at a burial in Greyfriars church, could date from any point between the mid 13th century and the mid 16th (as could the male, for that matter) In reality, because the site is part of a much older urban settlement, the remains could be older than that.

There need be no connection whatever with the male remains.

[Phil H]

The quote I have is this:

Richard Taylor, Director of Corporate Affairs at the University and one of the prime movers behind the project, said:

“We have exhumed one fully articulated skeleton and one set of disarticulated human remains. The disarticulated set of human remains was found in what is believed to be the Presbytery of the lost Church of the Grey Friars. These remains are female, and thus certainly not Richard III.

“The articulated skeleton was found in what is believed to be the Choir of the church.

“The articulated skeleton found in the Choir is of significant interest to us....

The link (to the Richard II Society website) is here:

http://www.richardiii.net/

Phil H

[RivkahChaya]

'Richard' comes from the purported choir, the mystery lady from the presbytery.

What is the "presbytery"? I'd Google it, but I'm afraid it'll be one of those words that means something different in the US and the UK, since "Presbyterian" is a Protestant denomination here.

I'm really not good with "parts of a church," although I assume "choir" is what my Catholic and Episcopal friends called the "chancel," and everybody else called the "choir loft," even if it was just a raised platform, and not really a loft, or balcony. The map on the Huffington Post page is gone.

Churches have a lot more variation in design here, particularly since there are a lot of buildings that are now churches, but started out life as something else. But also, a lot of denominations, like the Southern Baptists, AME, Church of Christ, and a lot of others, abandoned the traditional structure on purpose.

[RivkahChaya]

Out of curiosity, if they get a positive mDNA match, which would pretty much rule in only Richard, since I can't think of any descendants of Cecily Neville who are missing, other than one two-year-old girl, and they otherwise get good DNA, which is to say, a good Y-chromosome, is there any chance there would be a push to disinter the skeletons that were found in the tower in the 17th century, and try to get DNA from them? If they had a Y-chromosome match with this skeleton, then they would almost certainly be the princes, but if not, then either they couldn't be, or Edward IV wasn't their father (and I don't think the second is especially likely).

I'm just saying, it's a chance to get a Y-chromosome to match, without having to disinter another body, like Edward IV, or one of the other male relatives.

I realize that no one wants to disinter the boy skeletons every n years just to try out some new science, but this could settle the question once and for all.

[Phil H]

According to WIkipedia, "The presbytery is the name for an area in a church building which is reserved for the clergy". It is essentially the area in front of the high altar and extending to the crossing and thus equates to what i have earlier referred to as the choir. Thus, in medieval terms, it was behind the "ROOD SCREEN" a stone or wooden partition separating the nave (for the lay people) and the "choir" as it would be called in English churches.

The choir can take up the whole of the chancel, or there may be a walk-way around it.

In Lincoln Cathedral, Katerine Swynford (mistress of John of Gaunt and her daughter Joan Beaufort (Richard III's grandmother) are buried in ornate tombs beside the High Altar and the choir (or what Wikipedia defines as the presbytery). Exactly where Richard III was buried in Leicester Greyfriars, will depend on the ground plan of that church.

Phil H

[Phil H]

I doubt whether the authorities would give permission for ANY royal (or indeed non-royal) body to be exhumed.

Interestingly, I believe HRH The Duke of Edinburgh did give DNA for assistance in identifying the Russian imperial family murderer at Ekaterinberg.

Phil H

[Phil H]

called the "choir loft"

I think a choir loft might refer to the raised area, often part of the rood screen (see my earlier post) where an organ is often now sighted. this would be literally above (at a higher level than) the chancel and overlooking it.

Phil H

[Beowulf]

I have nothing to add to this column but it is absolutely fascinating, and so are many of the comments.

[RivkahChaya]

Interestingly, I believe HRH The Duke of Edinburgh did give DNA for assistance in identifying the Russian imperial family murderer at Ekaterinberg.

Phil H

Not the murderer, just the bodies. He has the same mDNA as the Tsarina, as his maternal grandmother was her sister, and therefore all the children did as well. If I recall correctly, his mDNA also ruled out Anna Anderson as Anastasia, before Anastasia's body was actually found, although after Ms. Anderson's death. DNA typing was not terribly advanced when she died, but enough was known that someone had the foresight to save tissue samples.

If anyone cares, Anna Anderson's mDNA was eventually matched to that of a Polish man named Karl Maucher, grandson of a woman named Gertrude (Schanzkowska) Ellerik, who as it happens, had a sister, Franziska Schanzkowska, who had spent some time in mental institutions, and then disappeared, at least as far as the family knew, right around the time that the mysterious amnesiac tried to commit suicide in Berlin, and somehow ended up recovering memories of a basement massacre.

Actually, a lot of people had known that Anderson was really Schanzkowska since 1927, but the "Anastasia" thing made a better movie.

[RivkahChaya]

I think a choir loft might refer to the raised area, often part of the rood screen (see my earlier post) where an organ is often now sighted. this would be literally above (at a higher level than) the chancel and overlooking it.

Phil H

I can guess what a "rood screen" is, because I read "The Dream of the Rood" in college.

This website needs a British-American glossary.

[Phil H]

You are amazing, Rivkah.

[Steve S]

Going back a bit,I'll go along with the hurriedly-raised Welshman with a hunting arrow........