Richard III & the Car Park

[Monty]

I passed the Cathedral today, at about 8am, and there were thousands there.

Its quite manic and surreal here in Leicester at the moment.

Monty

[Bridewell]

I never imagined when I started this thread that it would get past the 1,000 post mark!

[Sally]

I never imagined when I started this thread that it would get past the 1,000 post mark!

It's been a great thread - thanks for starting it!

[Mayerling]

I never imagined when I started this thread that it would get past the 1,000 post mark!

Hi Bridewell,

I agree with Sally. Thank you for starting such a fascinating thread. The chance or discovering and identifying the remains of such a well known, if controversial, historical figure rarely occurs - though it may occur more frequently in the future. In the last twenty years they found the funerary urn (and remains?) of King Philip of Macedonia, father of Alexander the Great. I mentioned the recent possible rediscovery of the remains of Cervantes in Madrid. And I seem to recall that Douglas Campbell, the speed racer who was killed in the 1960s - his remains were finally found about six or seven years ago. People are better equipped to look for these remains today than even thirty years ago.

Every now and then I hear of possible searches for the tomb of Alexander the Great in Egypt or the tomb of Genghiz Khan in Mongolia. Why can't they be found (or parts of them be found)?

Jeff

[Mayerling]

I forgot to add that they also found Mallory's remains on Everest fourteen years back, and more recently even found the sunken HMS Erebus finally.

Jeff

[GUT]

I believe there is a fresh search planned or under way for Genghis Khan's remains.

[Rosella]

He's not under a car park, is he?

There are supposed remains at Waltham Abbey that have to be looked at. Harold apparently didn't get an arrow through the eye at Hastings but ended up as a hermit for fifteen years on the abbey grounds!

[Mayerling]

He's not under a car park, is he?

There are supposed remains at Waltham Abbey that have to be looked at. Harold apparently didn't get an arrow through the eye at Hastings but ended up as a hermit for fifteen years on the abbey grounds!

Well there's no shortages of car parks, are there?

That story about Harold surviving Hastings and living his last years as a hermit at Waltham Abbey sounds like the prototype of the story that Tsar Alexander I of Russia survived his so-called illness and death at Tagenrog on the Black Sea in 1825, and lived until 1864 as "Fyodor Kuzmitch", a well-respected holy man in Central Russia.

Jeff

[Graham]

King Harold, whilst still Harold Godwinson Duke of Essex, made a pilgrimage to Waltham some time in the 1050's and was cured of some disease or the other, as people were in those days. So grateful was he, that he funded a rebuild of the church. He therefore had close ties with Waltham, and if he did indeed survive Hastings (which I very much doubt), it was a place he would very likely have retreated to.

Graham

[Limehouse]

I used to live in Chingford, about five miles or so from Waltham Abbey. As a youngster, and a history fanatic, I often used to hop on a bus to Waltham Abbey and enjoy a Sunday afternoon walking round the little town. Later, from the age of about 14, I used to cycle there.

There is a grave in the grounds of the Abbey that is reputed to be the approximate burial place of King Harold. It was very strongly believed locally that this is where he was laid to rest and, as Graham mentions, he had strong local connection, having founded the Abbey there.

I have not been there for many years but I am sure it is still very charming, with narrow little streets lined with old houses and shops. There even used to be a livestock market in the town square with cobbles and pens still in place.

[Graham]

I used to have a customer in Waltham Abbey, and like you I always thought it was a nice place to visit. Used to waste my employer's money on lunches at a very pleasant local pub more or less in the centre of town, name forgotten.

Its main modern claim to fame is that it was where one of the Royal Gunpowder Mills were situated, and I think there may still be some remaining interest in things that go 'bang'.

Good to hear from you again, Julie. (Will reply to your PM later).

Graham

[Robert]

The church has a fine ceiling.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/search.php?i=54775054&page=1

[GUT]

The church has a fine ceiling.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/search.php?i=54775054&page=1

That's funny.

When I was about 4 was page boy/ring bearer at a friend's wedding, got into no end of trouble because I spent most of the wedding staring at the ceiling, because I'd never seen anything like it.

[Robert]

Well you were only 4, GUT.

[Mayerling]

And now Senior Cervantes....

The following is from the New York Times of a week ago last Wednesday, March 18, 2015 on page A4 (first section)

Remains Found in Madrid May Belong to Cervantes by Raphael Minder and Alan Cowell

"In a discovery that could create a new venue for literary pilgrims, Spanish investigators said on Tuesday that they might have located part of the remains of Cervantes, whose novel "Don Quixote" has enthralled readers over centuries with stories of the eponymous knight and his servant Sancho Panza.

Cervantes, often lauded as having written the first modern novel, died in 1616 after requesting burial in a convent in Madrid, where, for almost a year, investigators have been searching the subsoil for bones that they now believe include some of the author's.

"Everything coincides to lead us to believe that Cervantes is there.", a forensic expert, Francisco Etxeberria, said at a news conference in Madrid, Reuters reported.

The investigators cautioned, however, that it may be impossible to guarantee that the bones are those of the writer. Almudena Garcia-Rubio, an archeologist, said that there was an unconfirmed genetic identification," although DNA tests were being performed.

The whereabouts of Cervantes's bones has been a mystery since the Convent of the Discalced Trinitarians was rebuilt in the 17th century. The remains were finally found below the ground of the crypt of the church, at a depth of almost 50 inches in a box that contained bones from 10 adults and five children, according to Ferdinando de Prato, a historian who led the search for Cervantes.

Mr. de Prato said that the forensic team still faced, "a lot of work" to separate the bones, perhaps try to reconstruct the bodies, and perform DNA testing. "It would of course have been better to find his remains complete," to establish the identity of Cervantes with certainty, he said, "but I still have the feeling today of having reached the end of a journey."

The team of investigators used infrared cameras, 3D scanners, and radar to search the crypt and it's alcoves.

During the excavation, the investigators found decayed wood from a coffin with the letters M and C marked out in tacks. (Cervantes full name was Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra.) The discovery of the coffin was announced in January, but it turned out to contain the remains of a child rather than those of the writer, Mr. de Prato said.

Cervantes is most often remembered for "Don Quixote" which gave the world the word quixotic in acknowledgement of its central character and his adventures, including his joust with windmills. The expression "tilting at windmills" also denotes people who take on imaginary adversaries.

But such recognition as a writer came too late to bring Cervantes any fortune, after a life spent mostly as a soldier - including a five year spell in captivity after pirates intercepted his naval ship.

The discovery of the possible remains comes as Spain and the literary world celebrate the 400th anniversary of the publication of the second volume of "Don Quixote" (the first was published in 1605).

The authorities in Madrid are hoping to build a monument within the church to commemorate the writer, with the goal of completing that work by April of next year, the 400th anniversary of his death."

[Raphael Minder reported from Madrid, and Alan Cowell from London.]

Jeff