Richard III & the Car Park

[RivkahChaya]

2: Given the manner of Edward's death, and Edward himself, I wonder if we could be looking at Marfan Syndrome? Sufferers are tall, thin featured, long limbed, pigeon chested, and often develop scoliosis in reaction to loose connective tissue.

I'd be surprised, because people with Marfan's probably died even younger back then, and were prone to pneumonia, as well as heart valve infections, and also often had disproportionate limbs (short fibula & tibia, ulna & radius). Has any suit of armor belonging to a Yorkist survived?

Also, on the Habsburg jaw, it looked more like Jay Leno, than the reconstruction of Richard, because Richard prominent chin seems to come from a small midface, which could be related to his scoliosis, could be a familiar trait, or could be a coincidence. Minor cases of underbite caused by small palate are handled by orthodontia. A kid has to wear a palate expander. One of my cousins had one for four years. If I get her permission, I'll post before and after pix, but it really affected the way her nose looks to have her palate expanded. She also had a crossbite corrected with orthodontia, and that straightened her deviated septum, believe it or not.

Serious cases have to be corrected with substantial and delicate surgery, though.

The Habsburg jaw, when it was serious, caused bad malocclusion, and people had to have food cut into small bites, or even mashed. In a few people, their mandibular condyles didn't move freely, which can be a painful condition, and can interfere with eating and talking.

What really did the Habsburgs, and the rest of the European royal family in, though, apart from revolution, was hemophilia.

[Jenni Shelden]

finders keepers, losers weepers, LOL

[Phil H]

I still think he should buried with Anne. I would say or his son, but of course we don't know where he is buried. Whether she comes to him or he goes to her, I don't much care. They were friends, they were husband and wife, and to the best of our knowledge he was faithful to her, which is kind of unusual.

That is the usual assumption and probably right - the two had grown up together and must have known her well.

There's the old tale of Richard seeking her out when brother George tried to prevent their marriage (George being married to Anne's sister Isabelle) and finding her, Cinderella like, disguised as a kitchen maid. he then swept her off to sanctauary in St Martin Le Grand and later married her. they had to have a special licence from the Pope because they were cousins.

But there is another interpretation that says the whole thing was based on Richard wanting her half of the Warwick inheritance - the Neville lands of the Earldoms of Warwick, Salisbury and more. Modern historians, tracing his management of his lands and property have found him "grasping" and avaricious, towards his mother-in law as well as feuding with George over who got what of the sisters' wealth.

But that is interpretation. We simply don't know.

Anne and Richard may have hated each other; may have had an alliance of necessity; may have loved each other to bits.

There is that odd story that in the last year of Anne's life Richard was making eyes at his neice Elizabeth (later married to Henry VII). There was enough in it that he had to make a public declaration that he had no intentions towards her. Again, we don't really know what was going on.

But Anne is now has a tomb in Westminster Abbey after a long time without a memorial. And Richard has been in peace in Leicester for 500 years. Perhaps best to leave each where they have been for so long?

Phil

[RivkahChaya]

There is that odd story that in the last year of Anne's life Richard was making eyes at his neice Elizabeth (later married to Henry VII). There was enough in it that he had to make a public declaration that he had no intentions towards her. Again, we don't really know what was going on.

Out of curiosity, how problematic would that have been, given the fact that Titulus Regius made her illegitimate?

I realize this was probably a Tudor rumor, and for them, the official story was that Richard killed the boys, rather than established them as illegitimate, but assuming that Richard really was eyeballing his niece, was there a way to legitimize her, but not the boys? or did it not matter, since she would just be a queen consort, and not a queen regnant?

[Errata]

But there is another interpretation that says the whole thing was based on Richard wanting her half of the Warwick inheritance - the Neville lands of the Earldoms of Warwick, Salisbury and more. Modern historians, tracing his management of his lands and property have found him "grasping" and avaricious, towards his mother-in law as well as feuding with George over who got what of the sisters' wealth.

But that is interpretation. We simply don't know.

I thought the question of Warwick inheritance wasn't settled until after they were married? With some odd cousin of Anne getting royally screwed out of his lands and money. Literally. And George... well if Richard was grasping, George was a Hungry Hungry Hippo. I mean, he betrayed his brother over an advantageous marriage he wants. So I'm inclined to look kindly on Richard and his property management.

[Monty]

Good grief, Richard had a Yam Yam accent, not a Yorkshire one.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21369077

Monty

[Phil H]

Well, we know that "received pronounciation" is a modern thing. I seem to recall they think Elizabeth I spoke with a similar brogue. Shakespear was Warwickshire, and Raleigh broad Cornish, because the Queen ribbed him mercilessly about it.

The phonetic way they spelled before Dr Johnson "invented" the dictionary, is not a bad way of working out how they spoke and heard words.

I thought the question of Warwick inheritance wasn't settled until after they were married? With some odd cousin of Anne getting royally screwed out of his lands and money. Literally. And George... well if Richard was grasping, George was a Hungry Hungry Hippo. I mean, he betrayed his brother over an advantageous marriage he wants. So I'm inclined to look kindly on Richard and his property management.

You may well be right, Errata. It's all interpretation. I was simply putting the alternative view of the marriage. I think they probably were lovebirds, but I have a few caveats:

a) the whole of Richard's family were undoubtedly calculating and had an eye to the "bottom line";
b) we probably would not have liked any of them -medieval aristocrats were, I suspect - an alien breed to anything we are familiar with, in their arrogance, assurance and motivation;
c) most noble marriages included an element of money/property and Anne would probably not have expected to marry for "love". Indeed she would have had little say. In 1471/72 her father was dead, her mother in sanctuary, her once poweerful relatives dead or discredited, her father an attainted traitor - NOT a good bargaining position, even if she thought she knew her husband to be.

Phil

[Steve S]

Am now really irritated that I must have picked up the inaccurate "Constable" bit from somewhere over the years........

[Phil H]

You were right in one regard, Steve.

Richard was, amongst other things, Lord High Constable of England - but the title did not relate to his northern power- base, nor to his responsibilities there.

The Lord High Constableship (effectively absorbed into the crown since Henry VIII's day - he executed the last hereditary holder of the office) was one of the Great Offices of State - and still is.

The others were Lord High Steward; Earl Marshal; and Lord High Chancellor - there were some others such as Chief Butler, and Lord High Admiral (also held by Richard at one time).

The High Steward and Constable are now appointed solely for the day of a coronation - the last Lord High Constable being Field Marshal Viscount Alanbrooke in 1953. The holder carries a special baton with a crown or coronet at one end. Wellington held the post at the coronations of 1821 (George IV), 1831 (William IV) and 1837 (Victoria).

The Lord High Steward used to be appointed to preside over the trails of peers when - before 1948 - they could be tried before the House of Lords (their "peers"). the film Kind Hearts and Coronets recreates such a scene. In 1953 the Lord High Steward was Admiral of the Fleet Lord Cunningham of Hindhope.

Phil

[Errata]

You may well be right, Errata. It's all interpretation. I was simply putting the alternative view of the marriage. I think they probably were lovebirds, but I have a few caveats:

a) the whole of Richard's family were undoubtedly calculating and had an eye to the "bottom line";
b) we probably would not have liked any of them -medieval aristocrats were, I suspect - an alien breed to anything we are familiar with, in their arrogance, assurance and motivation;
c) most noble marriages included an element of money/property and Anne would probably not have expected to marry for "love". Indeed she would have had little say. In 1471/72 her father was dead, her mother in sanctuary, her once poweerful relatives dead or discredited, her father an attainted traitor - NOT a good bargaining position, even if she thought she knew her husband to be.

Phil

A: True Dat, as the kids say.
B: Yeah. Well, you haven't met my family. Or maybe you have since you just described them perfectly.
C: By that time everyone was already married. And with the attainder, everything fell into Edward's hands, which is probably what allowed him to split the estate between George and Richard. But Richard did have a prenup with Anne, describing in detail what He could expect from Anne's family. Which of course was voided by their attainder.

[Bridewell]

This dig has even reached The Daily Mash:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/richard-iii-to-pick-up-where-he-left-off-2013020458569

[Sally]

And not just the dig, either...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/opinio...-2013020859128

[Beowulf]

And not just the dig, either...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/opinio...-2013020859128

Can they actually ascertain the shape of the nose from a skull?

[RivkahChaya]

Can they actually ascertain the shape of the nose from a skull?

No. They can guess if they know the age and ethnicity, and get some idea from the bone just below it, and the size of the nasal opening, but, as with the hair, I think there was some reliance on portraits. When I put texture on the face, I bent the nose out of shape a little, because the majority of adults have had a nose injury at some point, and almost no one in the 20-21st century has a nose that straight, and we seek medical attention, usually. That doesn't mean my picture is more exact, but the idea is, I think. I also made the nose shorter at the bridge, because on the bust, it looks too far up the face, or something.

When people find a badly decomposed body, the flesh may be gone, but it may still have cartilage, so the nose is much closer. This is bones only. So, police reconstructions of a body are probably closer-- with the caveat that if it happens that the existing portraits were very close, then the bust probably is as well.

[Errata]

No. They can guess if they know the age and ethnicity, and get some idea from the bone just below it, and the size of the nasal opening, but, as with the hair, I think there was some reliance on portraits. When I put texture on the face, I bent the nose out of shape a little, because the majority of adults have had a nose injury at some point, and almost no one in the 20-21st century has a nose that straight, and we seek medical attention, usually. That doesn't mean my picture is more exact, but the idea is, I think. I also made the nose shorter at the bridge, because on the bust, it looks too far up the face, or something.

When people find a badly decomposed body, the flesh may be gone, but it may still have cartilage, so the nose is much closer. This is bones only. So, police reconstructions of a body are probably closer-- with the caveat that if it happens that the existing portraits were very close, then the bust probably is as well.

By the way, your Richard looks like Michael DeLuise. It bothered me for days until I watched an old episode of Stargate and saw him on it.