Richard III & the Car Park

[Phil H]

I suppose that would be the downside of having doubles - the king is more protected but if the rumour gets among his own troops that he is dead, then he has to do something.

The only English king I can recall using doubles in a battle - or at least others wearing his heraldic blazons was Henry IV at Shrewsbury.

There is no indication that Richard ever resorted to such tactics, which I think he would have regarded as deeply dishonourable.

Phil

PS: Monty will contact you at the weekend by PM.

[RivkahChaya]

On the bust, good work Rivkah.

I wonder whether responsibility, care and maybe pain might have given him hollower eyes and cheeks - we'll never know. But that might make the resemblance to the portraits closer.

The color of the bust made it come out looking like a very healthy actor in make-up. I'd like to give it another try to get away from that. My goal was to get some beard stubble, and creases on it, and get rid of the "dead" look in the eyes.

Richard's darkness was supposed to have given him a closer resemblance to his father, than his siblings bore. The blond Plantagent/Beaufort look may have come though their mother Cecily as might their height.

I tried to get his skin looking a little weathered, but the bust was so light pink, it was hard. How tan to Brits who spend a lot of time outside (without sunscreen) tend to get?

Has any indication been given as to how tall Richard they think might have been (it'll have to be an estimate as the feet of the skeleton are missing)? I missed the documentary because of a prior engagement so am somewhat behind the curve. Richard is generally assumed to have been short compared to his glamorous brothers, but such assumptions may now have to be re-thought.

His actual height, and potential height will be different, because the spinal curve will take several inches off of him. He probably was technically the same height as his brothers, but stood a couple of inches shorter, because of his scoliosis.

Does anyone know whether the condition is hereditary? Could Edward of Middleham, Richards son who died aged around 10, have inherited the condition? Phil

Phil, scoliosis is not one thing. It can be a primary condition, or a symptom of something else. It can be mild or severe. It can be the result of a genetic condition, an injury, poor nutrition, or have no known cause.

The skull has a small midface, and even though is is reconstructed with normal outer ears and a fairly large nose, we don't really know how correct those are. There are a couple of syndromes that involve a small midface, low ears, back deformities, short stature, and a hot of other things, and in a mild presentation, could look like what Richard had. In a more serious form, they could also involve cleft palate, lung insufficiency (concave chest), limited range of motion in the wrists and elbows, and mild retardation.

Most of them are dominant traits, which means any child of Richard's would have a 50% chance of having the trait. Dominant traits are more likely to have variable expression-- be serious in one person, and mild in another, and can occur spontaneously. Achondroplastic dwarvism is a well-known dominant trait that frequently occurs spontaneously, then can be passed on to a child.

However, the vast majority of cases of scoliosis are in people with no other condition, and have an unknown etiology, and so many children died in the 15th c., that I am guessing it was simply a coincidence Richard's son died young.

If the reconstructed face is anywhere near accurate, Richard must have cut a very "boyish" figure on the battlefield. I wonder whether his youthfulness made some of the older men at court dislike him?
Phil

Phil, I think he just looks boyish because he lacks beard stubble. Also, a little because he's so pinkish. He looks like he hasn't worked a day in his life. I don't think that bust represents the way he looked to people at the time. I have to go back and try to make a more weathered one. Maybe put a scar on it some where. Where on his face would Richard be most likely to have a scar?

[Graham]

He also planned to be buried at York Minster and spoke about building a chantry-chapel for himself there.

Grateful to know where this statement comes from. So far as I am aware we know NOTHING from contemporary sources about Richard's burial intentions.

I genuinely would be interested to know if another source has emerged. the usual inference is that Windsor, where his beloved brother was buried, might have been in his mind. Fotheringhay - where Richard had overseen the re-burial of his father's remains was also in part designed as a mausoleum of the House of York.

Phil

Right here, Phil: http://www.historyofyork.org.uk/them...d-iii-and-york

Vested interest possibly....

Graham

[RivkahChaya]

Smith-Magenis Syndrome is a genetic syndrome caused by a deletion of a portion of chromosome 17. It happens probably before conception. Two symptoms are distinctive facial features that include a small midface, with downward-slanting eyes, narrow eyes, and a prominent chin. Many people with it also have scoliosis.

Most people with it have a degree of mental retardation, but as it was only identified in 1982, and the facial characteristics are not in themselves troublesome-- they don't cause breathing or vision problems-- it is possible that people with the syndrome who are not retarded simply do not come to the attention of the medical establishment. The facial characteristics are not so obvious (like those of Treacher-Collins Syndrome, for example), that they really don't grab your attention until you see several affected people at once.

Another interesting behavior pattern is that people with the syndrome are very friendly and have engaging personalities; however, when they do lose their temper, it tends to be a full-on tantrum, that takes time to blow over. I found that part fascinating.

Richard, profile:



Smith-Magenis Syndrome:



Now, I am not a doctor. But Phil asked about genetic syndromes. However, Smith-Magenis is not heritable.

[Phil H]

Graham - I'm perplexed. The article cites no sources, but as far as I am aware Richard left no will, or indication of where he wished to be buried. York is entirely plausible, but I am not aware that it is factually based.

The mention of Percy (Earl of Northumberland) is of interest as it shows the writer is not an expert, or even knowledgable.

Percy remained inactive during the battle of Bosworth, probably costing the King the battle and his life.

A few years later he was assassinated by a mob - I think in Yorkshire!! probably in revenge for his betrayal of RIII.

Rivkah, thanks for all the detailed medical info. Much appreciated and much to think about.

Richard had NO facial scar so far as I am aware - at least I have seen no mention of one. Sorry.


Phil

[Sally]

Next?

Richard's started a trend...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...s-alfred-great

[Phil H]

Not sure what Alfred's bones would tell us.

Indeed, how would they be identified.

In Winchester Cathedral, atop a screen are several boxes containing the bones of various Saxon kings. These were all mixed up (deliberately) during the Civil War so the chests contain bones of various individuals. I'm not sure whether Alfred wasn't supposed to be among the, - but I'll check.

Phil

[RivkahChaya]

By the way, medical syndromes aside, just going by the small midface and jutting chin, I'm guessing Richard had an underbite. Is there any mention anywhere of him having distinctive speech? People with underbites have a lateral lisp a lot of the time-- it's not the same kind of effeminate lisp that people associate with buck teeth-- it's actually sort of a tough guy lisp, that in old gangster movies, the short, but really broad-shouldered, tough-as-nails guy usually had. I'll see if I can find a clip some place.

[Errata]

It's also possible that he had some kind of customized protection that was fixed to his armor. It could have been hinged, so he could move it with his arm, but a lot of the weight would be on his upper back, and not on the left deltoids and biceps. It would provide the protection of a regular shield, but it would be better than nothing, and it would be better than using a regular shield very badly. Also, if his arm had a limited range of motion anyway, it might not have mattered that he didn't have the full use of a proper shield.

I have no doubt he had customized armor. Unfortunately, great fitting armor does not solve upper body mobility issues. It does help a guy stay on a horse, and prevents gaps that could easily become home to an arrow. So it's worth it. A targe is affixed to the shoulder, it essentially covers from collar bone to shoulder, about chin high, about waist low. And they are great for jousting or lance combat. They are terrible for battle, because in battle you have to defend yourself from foot troops, and A targe is no help there. It also limits the back and forth movement of that arm, so you can't use a weapon on that side. I think any adaptation made to the armor allowing it to function more predictably and with less strength would have been adopted by others. I mean sure, Richard might have needed the weight distributed differently, but that doesn't mean other knights wouldn't benefit from the same thing.

The fact is, the guy fought a lot. A whole lot. We aren't talking about him being potentially at risk for the final battle of Bosworth. Were talking hundreds of skirmishes, fights, wars, rebellions, etc. If he couldn't protect his left side, he would have died early. So he could protect his left side. He could use the technology and devices available at the time. And he hunted, so we know he could throw a lance and draw a bow. And he could fight with an axe, which is mostly a strength thing, but he had to be able to lift both arms over his head. All of these things require a level of mobility that does not go along with such a twisted spine, or even one shoulder higher than the other.

He did do these things. And yet none of these things are consistent with that level of spinal deformity. And if he just grit his teeth and gutted through these things, he should have had long recovery times after battle. But there's no record of his taking any appreciable amount of time to rest and recover. He should have been prostrate for a not insignificant part of his adulthood. But he wasn't. Also Adolescent onset scoliosis is accompanied by a loss of bone mass, as much as 50%. Which is unthinkable in someone who gets essentially whacked across the back with a baseball bat on a semi regular basis. And if he had broken vertebrae, it wouldn't necessarily mean paralysis, quadriplegia or death. But it necessarily would have resulted in broken vertebrae, which the skeleton does not have.

I will stipulate that he had a spinal deformity. A lot of people do. But that level of deformity just doesn't jive with Richard's accomplishments, and there's only so much assistance he could receive. Both because of the limits of technology, and because he commanded men who technically were not his during his brother's reign. If they though him disabled, they would not have followed him. So he had to at least appear perfectly normal, which means no tricks with the armor or weapons. So I have to think that the curve is exaggerated.

Someone mentioned them putting the spine together. And I haven't seen that. Does anyone know where to find that?

[RivkahChaya]

He did do these things. And yet none of these things are consistent with that level of spinal deformity.

Oh, I'm with you. I think a lot of people who aren't familiar with scoliosis don't realize that it varies a whole lot among people, and also varies over a person's lifetime.

I suspect that Richard had a mild case that progressed over his life, so had he lived to be 65, he would have been very disabled, but that didn't happen. The degree of disability he had at the moment of his death doesn't reflect the degree of disability he had when he was 17, and first began soldiering, or what he had when he was 25, or even what he had at the time of his coronation.

The people who saw him at Bosworth saw him in the worst condition he ever was in life. He may have looked hunchbacked to them, and that made it into the history books, because we know the history of Richard is the Tudor version, but that doesn't mean he looked that way all his life.

I also suspect what you do, Errata: that the position of the body after death affected the way the spine looks now, and it looks worse than he ever was in life.

[RivkahChaya]

Take Two....

OK, I fixed some of the blemishes, darkened the skin tones, and changed the lighting on the picture. I think I have a less "boyish" Richard now:

[Archaic]

Hi everyone. I'm just catching up on the thread, and still hoping I'll be able to view the documentary online somewhere.

The illustration shows how a person with scoliosis can have the appearance of "one shoulder higher than the other". In this case the lower shoulder is called a "dropped shoulder".

I'm hoping that in upcoming programs, articles, and books medical specialists will address the issue of how Richard's scoliosis might have affected his life- Was he born with it? Did it worsen as he grew older? How might it have affected his outward appearance? What kinds of social stigmas would have been associated with it? What types of medical treatments might have been attempted? How would a person born in the 15th Century have coped with this physical condition, particularly as regards being a prince, a king, and a military leader?

It appears that Richard's scoliosis would have been both physically and psychologically painful for him. I think it's apparent to everyone that he must have been a remarkedly determined individual to have overcome it to such an extent.

Best regards,
Archaic

[RivkahChaya]

I thought, for the record, I'd add a personal note. Now, I know that anecdote is not the singular of "data," but here goes.

A know someone who is pretty tall, and appears outwardly to have good posture. She was very athletic in high school, and ran track and played tennis. She remained fairly active, and when she was in her early thirties, had a fairly normal pregnancy, and a normal birth. The only hitch was that the backache everyone gets in the eighth month or so never went away.

She was diagnosed with mild scoliosis, and told to wear a supportive brace when she was doing any lifting, or a lot of walking. This is not the same thing as the corrective brace that you see some people wearing during adolescence. She was told she would probably need surgery, but the risk-benefit trade off was not good enough yet.

The brace and over-the-counter meds. helped her pretty well, but after about 15 years she started experiencing limited range of motion, and pain if she walked long distances. She got a handicapped tag for her car. She started going to physical therapy, and taking a muscle relaxant. She felt pretty good most of the time, but still experienced the limited range of motion.

When she was in her early fifties, the pain was bad. At that point, she had surgery, which had a long recovery. She had two vertebrae fused, and some implants in the rest of her vertebrae, and had to wear a pretty restrictive brace for several months. Then there was a lot of PT.

Her range of motion is now permanently limited as a result of the surgery, but not as much as it had been from the pain, and she is mostly pain free.

She missed by about 15 years the routine screenings schools do for scoliosis. The screenings catch a lot of cases that GPs don't catch, because GPs don't often see kids just before puberty, which is the best time to spot a mild case. GPs catch the serious cases, and the catch the mild cases when they produce discomfort, which is also when the window for cure, as opposed to treatment, is closing.

My son is six, though, and his GP always has him ben over for a spinal check. I don't remember my doctor doing that. He'd sort of surreptitiously check when he listened to my lungs, but that's not the best way to do it.

[Errata]

By the way, medical syndromes aside, just going by the small midface and jutting chin, I'm guessing Richard had an underbite. Is there any mention anywhere of him having distinctive speech? People with underbites have a lateral lisp a lot of the time-- it's not the same kind of effeminate lisp that people associate with buck teeth-- it's actually sort of a tough guy lisp, that in old gangster movies, the short, but really broad-shouldered, tough-as-nails guy usually had. I'll see if I can find a clip some place.

Ever heard of the Habsburg jaw? Or Habsburg Lip. Whatever. Profound underbite. But it's a deformity caused by profound inbreeding. Which the Habsburgs were pros at. To the point that the Spanish Habsburgs killed themselves off from it. Richard looks like he has the beginning of it. Which he may have. Because the York family tree didn't fork nearly as much as it should.

[jason_c]

I'm hoping that in upcoming programs, articles, and books medical specialists will address the issue of how Richard's scoliosis might have affected his life- Was he born with it? Did it worsen as he grew older? How might it have affected his outward appearance? What kinds of social stigmas would have been associated with it? What types of medical treatments might have been attempted? How would a person born in the 15th Century have coped with this physical condition, particularly as regards being a prince, a king, and a military leader?



Best regards,
Archaic

Archaic, according to the bone experts Richard was not born with the spinal defect. They said the curvature would have began at around 10 years of age.