Richard III & the Car Park

[Errata]

With all due respect, I think those at Leicester University know exactly what they are doing.

This aint no Mickey Mouse team here, these Guys are the real deal.

Monty

I agree. But there are a few discrepancies, the most notable of which being that there is no way a man with a spine curved the way shown could have donned armor, sat a horse, and fought with swords and axes.

Every reference to scoliosis in the reports refers solely too curvature of the spine. There is no mention of attendant bone markers, no genetic tests, no chemical analysis. Which might be out there, but they apparently haven't released it. Richard was dumped into a hole that was too small with his hands tied. That necessitates a curve to the posture of the body. When the tissue decomposed, the spine would sag in order to fill the gap. Now, this isn't to say he may not have had mild scoliosis. Lots of people do. But it would mean that the deformity he had in life was far less severe than the curvature his spine at his unearthing. Which would be more consistent with his reputation in battle.

[Monty]

What are you basing your opinions on Errata?

Monty

[Beowulf]

Richard was dumped into a hole that was too small with his hands tied. That necessitates a curve to the posture of the body. When the tissue decomposed, the spine would sag in order to fill the gap.

Below is a picture of the skeleton at the Stonehenge site and the one of King Richard III at the car park.You can see the difference in how the spine lays when it is a natural straight spine, even though laying in a hole in a curved position. The vertabrae in King Richard's spine formed together in an unnatural curve.

The question, 'can people ride horses with scoliosis' I looked up. Found some interesting things on it in the "Scoliosis Support" forum:

http://www.scoliosis-support.org/showthread.php?t=8154

"Since we now have quite a few horsey people on here, I thought it would be interesting to see how all of you cope with your crookedness on horseback.

I have a couple of pics here which show that while my back looks quite straight, I can't sit 'straight' in the saddle - my pelvis is twisted so my right seatbone doesn't make proper contact with the saddle and my right leg is further back and can't lie flat on the horse's side, with right toes sticking out 'Charlie Chaplin style'!"

There are pics at the site.

[Steve S]

You're welcome Phil,

You, and anyone else, must come over and have a look. Just gimme a shout.

Cheers
Monty

Damn good idea........

[RivkahChaya]

Below is a picture of the skeleton at the Stonehenge site and the one of King Richard III at the car park.You can see the difference in how the spine lays when it is a natural straight spine, even though laying in a hole in a curved position. The vertebrae in King Richard's spine formed together in an unnatural curve.

I know a little bit about scoliosis from my social worker days, when I has lots of clients who had it, usually people who also had some other problem, like CP. Anyway, the hunchback, fetal skeleton has kyphosis, something we are told that the Richard skeleton expressly did not have.

Second, the Richard skeleton, the way it is laid out, as an anthropological specimen, just doesn't look like anything in nature. No one with scoliosis has a spine that juts out, then becomes straight again, although from pictures I've seen, some people who have had fractured vertebrae, and been lucky enough not to get spinal cord damage, sometime get a funny kink in the spine, that looks like scoliosis at first glance, but isn't. The jut in that skeleton is way too pronounced to be the result of that, either, though.

Anyway, when someone has a wide angle c-curve running the length of the spine, it's one thing, but when someone has an acute angle curve, invariably, the spine then curves also to the other side, so the upper body weight is still evenly distributed, and you get an s-curve. It's also pretty unusual for the curve to end below the neck, so the cervical vertebrae are all straight.

The skeleton probably just looks that way because whoever laid it out had photographs of it in situ, and is generally used to laying out skeleton with the skull straight, because that's how it's done, and did not consult and orthopedist on how to lay the bones so they would look the most as they had in life.

[Bridewell]

Apologies if someone else has posted this already today and I missed it but "Richard III - The King In The Car Park" is on UK Channel 4 at 9pm tonight - i.e. it starts in a couple of minutes!

[Beowulf]

Apologies if someone else has posted this already today and I missed it but "Richard III - The King In The Car Park" is on UK Channel 4 at 9pm tonight - i.e. it starts in a couple of minutes!

Bridewell, you're right in Leicesterhire. Have you been to the site and seen any of the dig?

Wish I could watch that program!

These pics seem right on to me.

[Bridewell]

Beowulf,

I haven't, partly because, while I live in Leicestershire, I don't know Leicester itself very well at all. I intend to do so in the near future with a little kind help from Monty.
The images you post look pretty similar to what was shown on the programme. The curvature was significant and lateral apparently. The programme is well worth watching when you do get the chance.

I think, from the evidence presented, that the chances of the remains not being those of Richard III are about the same as those of Queen Victoria having committed the Whitechapel Murders and then gone on to drown MJD.

[Beowulf]

...I think, from the evidence presented, that the chances of the remains not being those of Richard III are about the same as those of Queen Victoria having committed the Whitechapel Murders and then gone on to drown MJD.

Agreed. I don't think they'd re-interr him in Leicester Cathedral if he was a possible maybe.

http://www.standard.co.uk/panewsfeeds/second-burial-for-richards-remains-8479701.html

[RivkahChaya]

These pics seem right on to me.

Wow. That first pic is from someone who had a combination of scoliosis, and kyphosis, giving him a corkscrew spine. That must have been awful. If you look at the ribcage, it looks like the lungs couldn't expand very well. At least it looks like a male pelvis. I'll bet a women with that kind of curvature was doomed to mid-term miscarriages. I'll bet that person was in a wheelchair toward the end of life.

The lower ones are s-curves. My point about the curve being only one direction is that people with scoliosis tend to carry themselves so their head is still more or less over their coccyx. A very obtuse curve the length of the spine tends to allow for this, but an acute curve, or even one that is more than 90 degrees, but not much more, usually causes a compensatory curve the other direction, and so you get the s-curve.

I said that not because I was arguing that Richard had no curve, just that the poster who said the curve in the skeleton may have become more pronounced after lying in one position for more than 500 years, and therefore give the impression of Richard being more disabled than he actually was. I don't know how much cartilage, or evidence thereof is preserved, although, I'm guessing "none," and that will make the position of the skeleton the best indicator of the curve, but what Richard was able to do in life is really important as well. If you think about how hard it much have been for that very contorted person in the first pic to take a deep breath, and you think how it probably would have been impossible to stay astride a horse if Richard wasn't able to pull his head over the center of his pelvis.

I think, from the evidence presented, that the chances of the remains not being those of Richard III are about the same as those of Queen Victoria having committed the Whitechapel Murders and then gone on to drown MJD.

I'm very entertained by the idea of Queen Victoria drowning MJD. She probably wrote the note, too. And started the rumor about his family thinking he was JTR. When "You Got Punk'd" meets diplomatic immunity.

[RivkahChaya]

Wish I could watch that program!

Start Googling it in a couple of days. Someone is bound to post it online. Check Gorillavid, Blinkx, Google it along with ".rar" and if nothing comes up, wait another week, then check for torrents.

If you get BBCA on your cable lineup, send them an email, and ask if they are planning to air it. Also, go to Amazon-UK, and see if the DVD is scheduled for release yet. It might be region 2, but there are lots of ways to play those in the US.

[Scorpio]

' The King in the carpark ' has been posted on you tube.

[Phil H]

Richard was traditionally referred to as "Richard Crookback" or "Crookback Dick" and it strikes me that the shape of the vertebrae/spaine as displayed would make that a VERY reasonable - even literal description.

Certainly the Ricardians - who have been rationalising the hunchback image out of existence in recent decades - will have to retink things.

Historically we KNOW that Richard was a warrior - wounded at Barnet, led the vanguard at Tewkesbury (both 1471 when he was about 18) and when 33 charged the pretender Tudor at Bosworth, on horseback, dying in the thickest press of his enemies, having struck down two knights, one particularly large. the skull confirms, with its wounds that story.

Yet the burial does NOT seem to confirm what we thought we knew - no coffin evident, - did someone say the hands had been tied?

According to the previous archival evidence, Richard was given an honourable new monumnent some years after his burial. So was he simply dumped in an open grave in a place of honour (an odd paradox) in 1485, uncoffined and with hands bound? was the public display of the body with hands tied? (As he was brought back to Leicester naked over the back of a herald's horse, the tied hands might be logical - but one would then have supposed he would be laid flat for the public viewing.)

Was the new monument simply built over the top without any exhumation? Not impossible I guess.

The facial reconstruction I have now seen is interesting too:

* quite handsome - reminds me of Robert Pattison from those vampire films;
* fuller faced than the portraits suggested;
* but not too dissimilar given artistic conventions etc.
* he looks very boyish;
* maybe in life his physical problems would have given him a more careworn look that the modellers have not felt able to recreate (it would be invention/supposition).

All in all fascinating, thought-provoking and amazing!!

We discussed a long time ago the burial - I'm sure it will go to Leicester with the RIII Society paying for a new monument to replace the present stone. York has put in a claim but I'll wager it will get nowhere. I believe the permit to exhume which allowed the dig to proceed demands re-burial in the Cathedral.

Sally - where did you find the info about royal burials HAVING to be in a cathedral by law? St George's Chapel and Westminster Abbey are NOT cathedrals.

Phil H

[Beowulf]

' The King in the carpark ' has been posted on you tube.

Just watched it, thank you

"Potentially fatal injuries to his head"...I understand “Although stories say his body was dumped in the river, many believe the body was claimed by the Franciscans and buried hastily but in a position of honour near the high altar of their church – exactly where the remains were found" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...#axzz2JqG1tHoV

But why is it his head is sitting up on a different angle when they found it, obviously not embedded in the same soil and direction as the body itself. This suggests the head was separated, but there is nowhere written he was beheaded. It does say his inujuries were due possibly to a halberd (brrrr) but "potential injuries to the head" would not be stated if his head were severed.

Btw, thankfully this film taught me for the first time how to say Plantagenet. It is not, as I have been saying with some discomfort, 'plant-a-janet'. Nice to know the pronounciation. No Janet's henceforth will be planted

[Monty]

York are wasting their time Phil,

If the ancient ruling is overturned then it will lead to Cities laying claim to their sons and daughters buried elsewhere.

We would demand Merrick back.

If York wanted him that bad they should done something about it long before now. They didn't, until the graft had been done.

Monty