Dyatlov Pass incident

[Ms Diddles]

#68 sounds very plausible to me, Ms D.
Except perhaps the initial avalanche theory, which seems to have it's detractors. Notably this chap;

https://dyatlovpass.com/borzenkov

Interesting Joshua!

Many thanks for posting that.

I was unaware of this study and had thought that the Puzrin-Gaume theory (as outlined below) was pretty much the final word;

Has science solved one of history’s greatest adventure mysteries? (nationalgeographic.com)

The article which you posted is crammed with scientific data, so it will take me a while to read and digest it all properly.

Amongst other things, it seems to be saying that the P-G findings pertained to a different site some distance away from where the tent was actually pitched, so the topography was completely different and the findings of limited relevance.

I'd be really interested to know if that claim is accurate.

Purely out of curiosity, what do you think caused the hikers to damage their tent in an attempt to flee, if not an avalanche?

[Joshua Rogan]

Basically I was wondering why the need for more than one cut? With a knife like that, one vertical cut - instant exit Id have thought.

Im basically just asking questions here Joshua. My knowledge of the case is next to zero apart from the basics.

Fair enough.

From the diagram, it looks to me like a square u-shaped panel was cut in the tent to facilitate exit. Although this has ragged edges, as if it had been flapping loose in high winds for several weeks. And there are some other, more random looking cuts and tears.

Interestingly, one of the diaries mentions having to repair the tent a day or two before the end. Might the tent have been already somewhat damaged?

[c.d.]

As experienced outdoors people, I would expect every member of the party to be carrying a knife. If it was an avalanche, I would expect the the natural reaction would be to grab your knife and cut the tent as opposed to waiting to see who is going to do it.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm not sure I understand your thinking here, Herlock.

You say that the cuts were confirmed to have been made from the inside, and that one of the party had a sharp knife. Yet then conclude that the cuts were not made by any of the group, despite the complete absence of any ski or foot trails in the area, other than those presumed to be made by the hikers themselves. What makes you think that?

In the statement of Vadim Brusnitsyn, the chap in charge of the search party which found the tent, he even says the cuts were made by Georgiy's Finnish knife, along with the branches cut for the fire at the treeline. Though quite how he determined this isn't stated (presumably an assumption as this was the only knife found).

He also says that the tent wasn't excavated very carefully and it was hard to determine what state the contents were in;

"Snow was cleared with the help of skis and ski poles. Ten people worked without any system. In most cases things everything was pulled out directly from under the snow, so it's very difficult to determine where and how each thing was.

First they took out several blankets, frozen in a ball, then buckets, a stove, 2-3 sacks of rusks, boots, etc. The things in the tent were arranged in the following order. At the bottom were laid rucksacks. Then 2-3 blankets. Next were the quilted jackets and personal belongings of the participants. Buckets, stove, ax, saw were lying at the entrance to the right. Here was part of the products: rusks, sugar, condensed milk, open bag with a loin. The rest of the products were in the far right corner. Most of the shoes lying were placed on the left side of the tent. Two pairs - right in the middle. [B)The rest of the things were in disarray in the tent.[/B]"

In case you haven't seen it, this also comes from the dyatlovpass.com website, which seems to have all the documentary evidence scanned, and translated into English. Which is helpful. It even has a diagram of the tent cuts, and close-up photos of them.

Basically I was wondering why the need for more than one cut? With a knife like that, one vertical cut - instant exit Id have thought.

Im basically just asking questions here Joshua. My knowledge of the case is next to zero apart from the basics.

[Joshua Rogan]

agree. its no great mystery to me. they fled the tent in a panic, cutting there way out (perhaps the opening was blocked/zipper frozen by snow)when there tent was being crushed by snow buildup, either by blizzard and or slab avalanche. once they left the tent they were essentially done for and most froze to death. the ones with traumatic injuries fell into a rocky ravine. the other injuries, eyes tongue etc, was from animal predation.

Although there are mysterious elements to it, on the whole I have to agree.
All the bodies with missing soft facial tissues were found in the ravine, in water. The autopsies indicate these occurred post mortem, although by rot / decomposition rather than predation.

[Joshua Rogan]

Apparently there is a supposedly authentic government document that shows that a search party was dispatched before the party was reported missing which if true is very strange and very suspicious.

c.d.

I've read that this could be a result of a hangover from the Russian use of the Julian calendar, which is 13 days behind. When adjusted to the Western European (Gregorian) calendar, the dates match up.

Although officially swapped after the revolution, in 1918, the two were apparently used interchangeably for some time.

[Abby Normal]

Still surprised this is being discussed as a mystery, frankly.
Everything is consistent with hypothermia in extreme weather conditions, following a group panic or anxiety perhaps or probably caused by some sort of impending avalanche or fear thereof.
The various “inexplicable” “facts” turn out to be speculation by dubious witnesses years after the event or just unconfirmed rumours.

No offense! Just wondering how this tragic event got elevated to UFO/KGB/Area 51 status

Was the crew of the Mary Celeste killed by kgb double agents too? No, they just abandoned ship and perished after which weather conditions changed and the ship sailed on.

agree. its no great mystery to me. they fled the tent in a panic, cutting there way out (perhaps the opening was blocked/zipper frozen by snow)when there tent was being crushed by snow buildup, either by blizzard and or slab avalanche. once they left the tent they were essentially done for and most froze to death. the ones with traumatic injuries fell into a rocky ravine. the other injuries, eyes tongue etc, was from animal predation.

[Joshua Rogan]

I’d like to mention the cuts in the tent.

A Seamstress claimed that the cuts had been made from the inside and the Sverdlovsk Research Crime Lab confirmed her opinion. They don’t sound like cuts just to open (or tear open) the wall of the tent in an attempt to get out though. Also, there were to exits from the tent and neither of them were blocked with snow so why the need to cut their way out? The arrangement of the items within the tent also seems to point away from any kind of struggle or any frantic attempt at escape? There were just no signs of disturbance inside the tent. The explanation that Anderson comes up with (whilst not favouring her entire theory) seems quite plausible. That whoever did it did it to render the tent useless as protection against the elements. Obviously there will be other theories but it’s difficult (for me at least) to come up with another reasonable explanation. Additionally, one of the hikers, George, was in possession of a ‘Finnish knife’ which had a long, sharp blade. Regular citizens needed permission to carry one at the time. Wouldn’t this knife have been capable of cutting through the canvas of a tent to effect an escape?

I'm not sure I understand your thinking here, Herlock.

You say that the cuts were confirmed to have been made from the inside, and that one of the party had a sharp knife. Yet then conclude that the cuts were not made by any of the group, despite the complete absence of any ski or foot trails in the area, other than those presumed to be made by the hikers themselves. What makes you think that?

In the statement of Vadim Brusnitsyn, the chap in charge of the search party which found the tent, he even says the cuts were made by Georgiy's Finnish knife, along with the branches cut for the fire at the treeline. Though quite how he determined this isn't stated (presumably an assumption as this was the only knife found).

He also says that the tent wasn't excavated very carefully and it was hard to determine what state the contents were in;

"Snow was cleared with the help of skis and ski poles. Ten people worked without any system. In most cases things everything was pulled out directly from under the snow, so it's very difficult to determine where and how each thing was.

First they took out several blankets, frozen in a ball, then buckets, a stove, 2-3 sacks of rusks, boots, etc. The things in the tent were arranged in the following order. At the bottom were laid rucksacks. Then 2-3 blankets. Next were the quilted jackets and personal belongings of the participants. Buckets, stove, ax, saw were lying at the entrance to the right. Here was part of the products: rusks, sugar, condensed milk, open bag with a loin. The rest of the products were in the far right corner. Most of the shoes lying were placed on the left side of the tent. Two pairs - right in the middle. [B)The rest of the things were in disarray in the tent.[/B]"

In case you haven't seen it, this also comes from the dyatlovpass.com website, which seems to have all the documentary evidence scanned, and translated into English. Which is helpful. It even has a diagram of the tent cuts, and close-up photos of them.

[Ms Diddles]

Still surprised this is being discussed as a mystery, frankly.
Everything is consistent with hypothermia in extreme weather conditions, following a group panic or anxiety perhaps or probably caused by some sort of impending avalanche or fear thereof.
The various “inexplicable” “facts” turn out to be speculation by dubious witnesses years after the event or just unconfirmed rumours.

No offense! Just wondering how this tragic event got elevated to UFO/KGB/Area 51 status

Was the crew of the Mary Celeste killed by kgb double agents too? No, they just abandoned ship and perished after which weather conditions changed and the ship sailed on.

Absolutely no offence taken, Kattrup!

Dashing out now.

I'll respond when I have more time......

[Kattrup]

Still surprised this is being discussed as a mystery, frankly.
Everything is consistent with hypothermia in extreme weather conditions, following a group panic or anxiety perhaps or probably caused by some sort of impending avalanche or fear thereof.
The various “inexplicable” “facts” turn out to be speculation by dubious witnesses years after the event or just unconfirmed rumours.

No offense! Just wondering how this tragic event got elevated to UFO/KGB/Area 51 status

Was the crew of the Mary Celeste killed by kgb double agents too? No, they just abandoned ship and perished after which weather conditions changed and the ship sailed on.

[Joshua Rogan]

Bumping this to avoid clogging up Herlock's book recommendation thread.

Looking back at the posts above, it is apparent that I am somewhat inconsistent with my avalanche theorising!!

I'd posted #68 in the hope that someone would pick holes in my theory, but nobody took the bait and it passed unremarked.

Any takers?

#68 sounds very plausible to me, Ms D.
Except perhaps the initial avalanche theory, which seems to have it's detractors. Notably this chap;

https://dyatlovpass.com/borzenkov

[Herlock Sholmes]

Bumping this to avoid clogging up Herlock's book recommendation thread.

Looking back at the posts above, it is apparent that I am somewhat inconsistent with my avalanche theorising!!

I'd posted #68 in the hope that someone would pick holes in my theory, but nobody took the bait and it passed unremarked.

Any takers?

Great minds think alike. I was just about to kickstart this thread for the same reason Ms D.

……

I’d like to mention the cuts in the tent.

A Seamstress claimed that the cuts had been made from the inside and the Sverdlovsk Research Crime Lab confirmed her opinion. They don’t sound like cuts just to open (or tear open) the wall of the tent in an attempt to get out though. Also, there were to exits from the tent and neither of them were blocked with snow so why the need to cut their way out? The arrangement of the items within the tent also seems to point away from any kind of struggle or any frantic attempt at escape? There were just no signs of disturbance inside the tent. The explanation that Anderson comes up with (whilst not favouring her entire theory) seems quite plausible. That whoever did it did it to render the tent useless as protection against the elements. Obviously there will be other theories but it’s difficult (for me at least) to come up with another reasonable explanation. Additionally, one of the hikers, George, was in possession of a ‘Finnish knife’ which had a long, sharp blade. Regular citizens needed permission to carry one at the time. Wouldn’t this knife have been capable of cutting through the canvas of a tent to effect an escape?

[Ms Diddles]

Bumping this to avoid clogging up Herlock's book recommendation thread.

Looking back at the posts above, it is apparent that I am somewhat inconsistent with my avalanche theorising!!

I'd posted #68 in the hope that someone would pick holes in my theory, but nobody took the bait and it passed unremarked.

Any takers?

[Ms Diddles]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022...pass-incident/

Interesting, String!

Thanks for posting.

This certainly seems to confirm the recent study.

If an avalanche is indeed a physical possibility, it has to be considered the most likely explanation by a country mile.

It's weirdly anti-climactic though, as it still leaves loose ends hanging.

- The fact that the tracks of foot prints down the hill appeared to be in an orderly fashion, with no signs of running or any injured parties being dragged or carried.

- The bodies found in the ravine were wearing bits of clothing torn from the outfits of the guys found at the tree, the inference being that the tree guys perished first so the survivors took the items for warmth and died later.

- The bodies in the ravine had sustained by far the worst injuries (fractured skulls, broken ribs etc) so would have been highly unlikely to have been moving around in such a condition (ie from tent to tree to ravine which IIRC is not an inconsequential distance in such conditions)

I suppose the most likely sequence of events is something like:

There is an avalanche / sounds that an avalanche is brewing and the group cut their way out of the tent and move downhill quickly but in an orderly fashion out of harms way.

They light the fire to try and keep warm and climb the tree to obtain firewood.

Two of them succumb to hypothermia there.

Three of the others try to make it back to the tent and die of hypothermia on the way.

The other four head off in another direction and fall in the ravine, therefore sustaining the injuries at this point (rather than during the avalanche and flight).

Does that work?

I don't know.

Would a fall in the ravine result in such dreadful injuries? I'm sure I recall them described as being akin to what one would see if someone was hit by a truck. (IMO indicative of injuries sustained in an avalanche, but then I find it hard to believe that these injuries would have been unapparent in the tracks, or that they could have covered so much ground and outlasted the tree guys).

Nor does it explain why the contents of the tent didn't show signs of avalanche either (but maybe that was incorrect).

I would just love to see a complete narrative which explains all elements of this incident.

I'm resigned to the fact that is highly unlikely to happen though!

[String]

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/03/confirmed-avalanche-is-likeliest-explanation-for-tragic-dyatlov-pass-incident/