Olympics 2012 - the meaning of equality

[Robert]

A strange thing happens in the world of chess (please note that I do NOT want to see chess in the Olympics - because chess is a game, not a sport). In chess, there is a World Championship, but it isn't the Men's World Championship - there isn't one. Instead there is the World Championship, which is open to men and women. However, there is a Women's World Chapionship. And one finds this provision for separate women's events right down the line to lower sections. There are as far as I am aware no men's events at all. So I'm wondering why this separation. It's true that women don't do as well at chess as the men, but no one is arguing that that is due to physical disadvantages. And I can't believe that women who turn up at mixed chess events get harassed - most male chess players are more concerned with their pawn structures than the structure of their opponents.

Women do enter the mixed events and sometimes do very well e.g. I think a few years ago Judit Polgar was in the top ten players in the world.

So, as the Americans say, go figure.

[Ally]

It's the same with any group of oppressed people. They get special treatment after the oppression "ends". Even if it isn't really over. Women are still treated like dirt in a lot of countries so they get special "treatment" by the "enlightened" populations who wish to show they are "not like that". It's the same reason you can claim "black pride" but not "white pride", why the NAACP is an accepted organization devoted to the advancement of black people while the NAAWP is of course a racist organization.

And besides, hordes of men would never really compete in rhythmic gymnastics, because then they might be considered gay. Can't have that. /sarcasm

[mariab]

I completely agree that gender discrimination against male gymnasts is as bad as past discrimination against female soccer players/female boxers. I expect that with all the complaints and coverage, by the next Olympics rhythmic gymnastics for men will be included.
Personally I'd have to admit I find rhythmic gymnastics (for both females and males) not particularly visually interesting or exciting compared to the "real thing" – vault, beam, bars, floor. I love the degree of difficulty and danger encountered in these 4 disciplines, esp. vault and beam. (As a tween I was very sad that my public school in Greece didn't offer the infrastructure for a coach and training in gymnastics, our gym had just a vault from which I was trying jumps, essentially self taught and unsupervised. Plus 2 bars for which at 14 I had the upper body strength of a slug, lol.)
I assume you are all aware that both gymnastics and figure skating have been demonized as "organized child abuse" in the press, with which I strongly disagree.
On the other side, I have reservations about whether certain so-called sports like ping pong, badminton, archery should be included in the Olympics. In my book, it's not a sport if you can do it while drinking beer. ;-) For chess I don't think so either, cuz then you'd have to include pool/billiard, poker. Where does it end? Why not roulette and black jack? Lol.

And I'm often irritated by the amount of male bashing encountered in the press and academics today in certain circles (not everywhere, thankfully), according to which men are "insensitive pigs" and women "oppressed victims". I'm very grateful for our female ancestors of the second wave feminism who have opened up legislation and societal reorganization for women to be allowed to progress according to their capabilities, but hearing termini like "patriarchal", "agency", or "misogynist" today makes me cringe big time, as none of this is currently relevant in any way whatsoever in today's Western world. (Not talking about Africa and the Arab territories here.)

[Steven Russell]

I've enjoyed the Olympics immensely this time and have also found this thread very interesting. A few random thoughts for what they are worth:

Chess (which I enjoy) is not a sport since it contains no element of physics - i.e. any movement of participant, projectile etc. It's pure brainwork. Good chess players can have a game with no board or men, in a darkened room. The game takes place entirely on a mental level. Pool, snooker, and billiards on the other hand do involve physical prowess (remember when certain players disappeared from the game when beta-blockers were banned?). Occasionally, one hears that darts is not a sport since the protagonists do not need to be physically fit. This is pure bunkum as darts is basically the poor man's archery and no-one ever says that's not a sport.

In terms of the sex debate, I feel the Olympics have it about right. For example, I would hate to see a unisex 100m sprint - women are set up differently and it's hard to imagine a woman outrunning Usain Bolt. We would be denied the recognition of great performances by, say, Allyson Felix and in any case, mention would be made of her being the fastest woman so we would be back to square one. By the same token, males competing on the uneven bars or beam would be laughable (and in the latter case potentially catastrophic). As for equestrian sports - yes, why not? And, as Maria implies, there may be other sports which would benefit from an open field but these would have to be those (e.g. snooker) where success was governed almost entirely by skill and hardly at all by strength or size. Otherwise it would be unfair. An analogy would be what might be called "combat sports". No-one ever asked Amir Khan to fight Lennox Lewis!

Finally, let me share with you something a friend (a cricket coach) told me recently, and I apologise if this is a bit off-topic. My buddy was at a conference which brought together coaches from many different sports and was appalled to hear the (British) diving coaches discussing openly ways to delay puberty in female divers as a curvy figure is not conducive to excellence in the sport. Shades of 1970s Eastern-bloc gymnasts? Disgraceful or what?

Anyway, loved the Games and well done to GB&NI for coming third!

Best wishes,
Steve.

[mariab]

And, as Maria implies, there may be other sports which would benefit from an open field but these would have to be those (like snooker) where success was governed almost entirely by skill and hardly at all by strength or size.

Actually I was referring to winter sports and water sports. A male surfer doesn't surf differently (or different waves) than a female surfer. A 1080° jump in the halfpipe by a guy is not bigger than a 1080° jump by a chick, and they crash from the same height (18-30ft). Evjeni Plushenko introduced the triple Axel-triple toeloop-triple loop combo in the late 1990s, now American female elite skaters include this combo in their long program if they're going for the gold. A triple Axel by a guy is not higher or tighter than a triple Axel by an elite female figure skater (esp. the Japs), and so on. Already in the 1990s people were commenting on Polish skater Anna Rechnio jumping higher than the guys, and check out how beautiful she looks: (Hardly a freak of nature!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Rechnio

Also, don't underestimate womens' physical strength if given half a chance to develop. Tiny gymnasts and female surfers (just two examples) have tremendous upper body strength. Just watch them move in super slow motion. When I was a tween I could hardly do a pushup, since I've started windsurfing/surfing I've never met luggage or a piece of furniture I couldn't lift plus stopped needing a winter coat, lol. And I'm just an amateur.

My buddy was at a conference which brought together coaches from many different sports and was appalled to hear the (British) diving coaches discussing openly ways to delay puberty in female divers as a curvy figure is not conducive to excellence in the sport. Shades of 1970s Eastern-bloc gymnasts?

This started happening in American gymnastics since Bella Károlyi (Nadia Comaneci's coach) emigrated to the West and opened his famous gym in Atlanta. Only after Károlyi introduced his harsh, Eastern-bloc training methods did US gymnasts began winning Olympic medals. Sports journalist Joan Ryan talks about the perils of gymnastics in her book Little girls in pretty boxes, but her book is inflammatory and considers solely the cases were failure or accidents occurred, not the successful athletes. It's a non advertised well-known fact that gymnasts eat anorexically to delay puberty. Don't mean to sound crude, but one can't do Olympic level beam and vault and spot hips and T & A. It's no different than jockeys keeping their weight down to an extreme, boxers needing to lose or acquire extra weight, injuries, harsh discipline, sacrifices. Otherwise, any slob could become an Olympian!

[Archaic]

As for equestrian sports - yes, why not?

Hi everyone.

I believe Equestrian events are the only sport in the Olympics in which men and women already compete equally. There are no "men's" or "women's" Olympic equestrian competitions; there are individual medal events and team medal events, whether it's in Jumping, Dressage, Cross-Country, etc.

By the way, Great Britain won the gold medal for Team Jumping, and the jump-off at the end where the two teams had to jump cleanly AND beat the clock was pretty exciting!

I've enjoyed the Olympics. I just wish I had had the time to watch more of them.

Seeing Muslim women from several nations competing for the first time has been fantastic, and who could be more inspiring than Oscar Pistorius?

Best regards,
Archaic

[mariab]

There are no "men's" or "women's" Olympic equestrian competitions; there are individual medal events and team medal events, whether it's in Jumping, Dressage, Cross-Country, etc.

Wow, I didn't know that, Bunny. And to think that in Victorian times women were asked to horseride sideways, for modesty!

[Phil Carter]

Thanks Chris, Maria.Julie,
it is worth pointing out that it is only relatively recently women have been allowed to compete in the following Track and Field events-
Marathon, 10K, 5k, hammer throw, pole vault and 3k steeplechase.
amongst others.
It is much the same with winter sports- but thankfully times are changing.
An insider who shall remain nameless told me a few years ago that Samaranch (snr) was against too much change- re women.

I suppose one can c6pare it to Platini and goal line technology in football- civil servants in Whitehall, and dare I say it, Ripperology! (tongue in cheek)
point being that some just dont want things to change.
It isnt long ago Lords Cricket Ground allowed women into the inner sanctum of that famous pavillion. One of the problems they faced was rather embarrassing. There were people working there every day- and in the hallowed library there too- women included. The present caretaker of the library is a lady. (and an extremely competant lady too!)
the history of Lords meant that many females HAD to enter the pavillion, to research.

Am watching the closing ceremony. Dont think Ive seen so many people so happy,
imagine- the song- sums it all up. Thanks John

Phil

[Steven Russell]

Maria makes several good points. Jockeys starving themselves etc. But deliberately delaying puberty seems wicked on another level to me.

And as a Brit, I would like to apologise for the closing ceremony. I've never seen such a load of **** in my life. How embarrassing.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[sdreid]

Thank God it's finally over

I would winnow it down to about 20 events that actually mean something.

[Ally]

Can someone explain to me why the eff Batman and Robin started off the closing ceremonies?? Was that another bit of obscure British culture I completely had no clue was a thing? Like grown men dressing in furry costumes and prancing around?

So much culture on display...

[Magpie]

Can someone explain to me why the eff Batman and Robin started off the closing ceremonies?? Was that another bit of obscure British culture I completely had no clue was a thing? Like grown men dressing in furry costumes and prancing around?

So much culture on display...

Apparently it was two British comedians appearing as two well-known Brit characters dressed up as Batman.

I didn't really get it either

[Ally]

I'd have enjoyed the Lennon thing if I weren't wanting to stab myself in the eye over the "let's make this meaningful by having a bunch of kids who don't know Sign Language stiltedly and without a hint of skill sign this badly".

ACK! Sorry massive pet peeve.

And why aren't there hot well dressed men prancing around and looking pouty during the "Fashion" segment? Is it because only women are that vapid?

Gothic...hmm. I am guessing annie lennox is about to make an appearance...Fingers crossed.

[Magpie]

I'd have enjoyed the Lennon thing if I weren't wanting to stab myself in the eye over the "let's make this meaningful by having a bunch of kids who don't know Sign Language stiltedly and without a hint of skill sign this badly".

Ehehe....I said the same thing to my wife during the opening ceremonies--why does everything have to include kids to give it validity these days?

[Magpie]

Okay, Annie Lennox is "Goth" like Mel Torme is "Gangsta Rap"....