Did Lee Harvey Oswald Kill Officer J D Tippit?

[DVV]

JFK lives on, Lynn

[lynn cates]

arrears

Hello David. OK, but can he sit down? (heh-heh)

I daresay he is in arrears. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[sdreid]

I think Oswald killed both and that there was no major conspiracy. My feeling is that at least one other person probably at least knew Oswald was going to do it and possibly played a minor role - so probably a small conspiracy. I doubt it was Ruby but who knows.

[Observer]

To Johnathon H, who is obviously well read on the subject of the Kennedy assassination. Was the gun found on Oswald after his arrest in the cinema, checked by ballistics as a possible weapon used in the murder of officer Tippit?

regards

Observer

[jason_c]

Here's what I've found regarding the bullets in the Tippit murder.

"They[the bullets] were consistent with Oswald's revolver, but because the revolver had been converted from a .38 into a .38 Special, no bullet fired from it could be positively matched to it."

More here. As a ballistics novice its all gobbledegook to me.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/firearms_hsca.htm#199

[Observer]

Hi Jason thanks for that. It appears that the bullets recovered from officer Tippit's body were too damaged to provide a link with the gun found on Oswald at his arrest.

Regards

Observer

[Jonathan H]

To Observer

You're very kind, but I have forgotten more than I remember on this subject.

One of the reasons being that Oswald brutally killing Tippit is such an open and shut case, and he nearly managed to kill other cops in the movie house.

Check out Oswald when he appears before the press. He's a cool customer, for sure, but a terrible liar.

'Did you assassination the President?"

'No, I have not been charged with that, in fact the first time ...'

Consider that you are entirely innocent of murdering President John F. Kennedy. How would you react, and what would you say before the world's media?

Would you be legalistically defensive, or would you be screaming your phucking head off that the most monstrous calmuny had befallen your blameless self!?

Somebody else wrote that a body-guard shot JFK, a myth about Huey Long moved up to 1963 and across to Dallas -- but anything to get Oswald off the hook.

Somebody else wrote that Oswald was troubled but not a killer, obviously unfamiliar with his reume of violent behaviour: his attempt to kill himself in Russia, he regularly beat Marina, and he tried to assassinate General Edwin Walker with the same rifle while the latter was sitting in his window, at night, doing his taxes (the wooden latice of the window, obscure even to a telescopic site, saved him).

Observer, I'm at work and will have to recheck my Gerald Posner ('Case Closed') sitting on the shelf behind me.

Of course, to a Conspiracy Buff the fact that I regard Posner as an authority on this subject (though I do not agree with him about Silvia Odio's worth, or lack of as a witness) immediately exposes me as a card-carrying member of the Real Control Apparatus, or the Masons, or, my favourite, the Invisible Nazi Substructure -- and, make no mistake, we are legion.

[Errata]

Check out Oswald when he appears before the press. He's a cool customer, for sure, but a terrible liar.

'Did you assassination the President?"

'No, I have not been charged with that, in fact the first time ...'

Consider that you are entirely innocent of murdering President John F. Kennedy. How would you react, and what would you say before the world's media?

Would you be legalistically defensive, or would you be screaming your phucking head off that the most monstrous calmuny had befallen your blameless self!?

Now I have an uncle who was working at Parkland, and he says that when Oswald came in and was autopsied that he was pretty severely concussed at the time of his death. He thought it came from the regular treatment a cop killer receives, but it's entirely possible it happened at the theater. So I'm not bringing it up out of some sort of proof for or against guilt, but it would mean that judging his guilt or innocence based on his affect would be inappropriate.

Actually my uncle was there when Kennedy came in, when Oswald came in, and treated Jack Ruby right before he died. There used to be a club of sorts of Parkland doctors and nurses who were there at all three deaths. Evidently they used to do dinner once a year or something.

[Jonathan H]

On the one hand, you're right that a person's manner is not hard evidence of anything.

On the other hand everything I have ever read by olice and been told by police is that --in general -- the guilty are cool,a nd collected and often legalistic (my rihgts etc.) wheras the innocent are nervy, and can even unravel at even being suspected by police, or even just being inside a police station.

The reason I say that he is a terrible liar is because he is lying at that press conference, trying to give the impression of a persecuted leftist who had no idea he was being suspected in the JFK Assassination until the pressmen asked him a question about it.

[Beowulf]

Then why did Ruby shoot Oswald ?

I'm no expert on this but the theory for that is Ruby was mobbed up and that Oswald was just a patsy. Conspiracy theorists suggest that Ruby shot Oswald so that he wouldn't talk and expose a conspiracy to kill the president.

However Ruby claimed he did it to spare Jacqueline Kennedy a trip to testify in the murder trial. But later he said that there was no reasoning behind the killing, and it was just a spur of the moment thing.

[Jonathan H]

Jack Ruby was unstable and he wanted to show that a Jew could do the right thing for the slain president -- and plug the little creep who had widowed Jackie.

Ruby may have stalking Oswald, as he was at the police conference, but Ruby was often there, the classic groupie, handing out his sleazy club's card, and so on.

Of course Ruby is not a mob hit because the mob would never have allowed Oswald to be taken like that, and to sit with the cops chatting for hours.

The Mafia would hardly have killed the president anyhow when they rarely shot cops. It was such an extraordinary risk.

A mobster even shared a mistress with JFK and it never occured to him to use her, eg. as a scandal, to get the Justice Dept. off his back -- it never even ocurred to Giancana to try blackmail, or bluff.

And yet they supposedly placed their lives in the hands of aunrelibale fringe figure such as Jack Ruby, who later kept telling people it was all an anti-Semitic conspriacy?

Ruby shooting Oswald was a fluke because, the night-club owner was next door at a western union post office mailing a cheque. It is time-stamped. A couple of minutes later he walked down the garage and shot Oswald as he was coming out, with the cops to be moved via van to another jail.

There is no way that kind of timing can be planned.

Oswald was officially being moved mch earlier, yet Ruby was not in position. At the last minute Oswald decided to change his top -- that got him killed as Ruby was now on time.

Ruby loved his pet dog and would never have taken her with him, to be left distressed in his car, if he thought he was going into custody.

The Campisi Brothers, local hoods, visited Ruby in prison asking if they could help. They would never have gone near Ruby if he was one of their own 'hit men', or even perceived to be one.

The notion of the Mafia's involvement post-dates the release of 'The Godfather' in 1972, and because of the minor detail that Oswald had an uncle in New Orelans who was a minor figure in the Marcello empire. As Mailer wrote: the middle class is so precarious in that city that it is hard not to be working for some tentacle of organized crime if you want to remain a member of the petty bourgeoisie.

The late Daniel Patrick Moynihan was at the time a Kennedy administration staffer, later a Nixon Cabinet Sec. and later a distinguished liberal Sen. from New York. Once he learned of Oswald's surprising identity -- eg. a pro-Castro leftist and not the expected Bircher/Klansman/racist, he frantically tried to get somebody in authority's attention at the shell-shocked, grief-stricken White House: to have Oswald removed from local custody and into the hands of the Feds. To get Oswald out of trigger-happy, Wild West, Dallas -- or else, he predicted, the suspect is as good as dead ...

[Observer]

Hi Jonathan

Thanks for that. I have no reason to doubt that Oswald killed both President Kennedy, and Officer Tippit, and that he acted alone. I wasn't aware of D P Moynihan 'part in the drama, truth is I've never even heard of Mr Moynihan, but to me his fears for Oswald safety speaks volumes. I think Ruby acted alone, Mr Moynihan's views seem to suggest this. Regarding your fears that membership of the invisible Nazi substructure could be tagged onto you profile, believe me it could be worse, at least it's not the very visible Nazi subculture whose presence on Ukrainian football terraces is only too evident. Very worrying indeed, very worrying.

regards

Observer

[Errata]

Jack Ruby was unstable and he wanted to show that a Jew could do the right thing for the slain president -- and plug the little creep who had widowed Jackie.

This is the first time I've ever heard the Jewish angle. Why would he need to show that "a Jew could do the right thing for the slain President"? Had the Jewish Community failed him previously? Was Ruby under the impression that they had? If so, why?

[Bridewell]

Of course Ruby is not a mob hit because the mob would never have allowed Oswald to be taken like that, and to sit with the cops chatting for hours.

Hi Jonathan,

Doesn't that pre-suppose that the mob were in a position to allow it? Could it not be argued that they were powerless to prevent it? If the forces of law and order wanted to arrest him, and the mob wanted to silence him, would it not be a simple question of who got to him first? (I'm not claiming any mob involvement btw, just following a line of thought).

Regards, Bridewell.

[robert newell]

Hi all... howsa bout' we pick one piece of evidence and concentrate on that. The handgun, witness timing,police actions, theater arrest, evidence chain, etc...or even backtrack to the tsbd and really have some fun. Not all of us people who believe in a conspiracy are tin foil hat cases. The evidence itself lacks proof as to Oswald's guilt. The proof of conspiracy lies in the Warren Commission itself. Lone gunman enthusiasts have a habit of saying a certain piece of evidence is true because it has to be, since Oswald shot the President. (The Bug syndrome). Please follow the evidence and/or lack of evidence with the same open mindedness you do jtr and I think you will see that acceptance of vital evidence by any of us in this case is a mistake.
I'm not looking for some grand conspiracy. It's just that study of this case for a long time has led me to my belief in a conspiracy. Sorry if I yak ed too long. By the way..I cannot thank the members here enough for the daily enjoyment and learning I get on jtr. .......Robert