Atheist Teen Gets 49 Year Old Prayer Banner Removed From School: Receives Threats

[Errata]

And you are of course perfectly justified in defending your beliefs, but when you tell someone who has professed atheism to "have faith" you are in fact telling them that you know better. You are being superior and condescending and telling them that your way of life or belief is the correct one, which they should emulate. Which is why you telling someone else to "have faith" is in fact your invalidation of their beliefs. You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but if I went around and said you shouldn't believe that, then I would be rightly called on it, but "believers" have absolutely no problem telling non-believers that they are wrong.

But I'm not saying that I will pray for you. I don't pray at all. And I'm not telling you to have faith in a God, or religion or philosophy. I'm saying have faith (meaning trust in) some of the unmeasurable qualities. Like willpower, or kindness, or even the thoroughness of others.

If you have an accident, and the doctor tells you that you only have a 2% chance of ever walking again, that's based on statistics. They count the number of people who recovered from that injury and divide that by the total number of people with that injury. Simple math. Does that mean you never even try to walk again because math doesn't lie? No. You try because you think you can be in that 2%. Not because you have faith in God, although I suppose some people do. I don't think God is going to do a damn thing, and you don't believe in a god. You have faith that your willpower is going to let you beat the odds. And given your willpower, it probably will.

That all I mean. Leave God, religion, philosophy, whatever out of it entirely. There are tangibles and intangibles in the world. Things that can be weighed and measured, and things that can't. My fiance can be weighed and measured. His love for me cannot. If I can't quantify it, what am I to do? I have faith in it. I trust it. I believe that there is more than what can be quantified.

Now, I happen to believe in some nebulous higher power. That is a completely unnecessary extension of faith. It isn't required for functioning, and is as illogical and unprovable as ghosts or aliens. Well, statistically speaking aliens probably exist, but I don't think they're kidnapping Midwestern farmers and making crop circles. And I freely admit that. If your dog dies, I will feel terrible for you, I will ask if you need help burying him, I'll go with you to pick up a new dog, whatever. I won't pray for you. I don't think God cares about us in the slightest. But I would ask you to have faith in the fact that while it hurts now, that you will be happy again. Which has nothing to do with my strange notions of otherworldly beings, and has everything to do with the fact that when people are hurting, they sometimes forget that it gets better. That sometimes people can't feel that, so they have to just trust that it will.

I mean come on. We both know that in the arguments for or against the existence of gods, evidence does not favor my side. So I'm never going to tell you that you are wrong, especially when I suspect and in fact hope that you are right. But I know people who are so locked in to only what they can touch, manipulate, measure, whatever, that they cannot put any faith in intangible concepts. They don't believe in love, they don't believe in justice, they don't believe in the intentions of other people. They cannot even really wrap their heads around the future with so little available data. They have no faith. They trust nothing. And they are as crippled by this lack as anyone who completely abandons their own judgement to a religion. There's a middle ground without ever involving the supernatural. Sometimes extraordinary things happen in this world. And it's never because of God. It's because people pushed themselves past what they thought was possible. They had faith that something more was out there. So they built an airplane, or a submarine, or decided to give bread mold a chance, or simply walked again when everyone said they never would. Science requires faith. Or no one would ever try anything.

It's not about God. He has nothing to do with any of it. It's about recognizing that we don't know everything. And that despite the fact that the math says one thing, we are willing to bet we can get it done anyway. That's all. Have a little faith. Trust in our ability to function past standard operating parameters.

[Normy]

'We both know that in the arguments for or against the existence of gods, evidence does not favor my side.'

There's no proof either way, you either believe or you don't.

[Steven Russell]

Hello, Errata.
Can I ask you about your nebulous higher power God who doesn't care about us? Does he intervene in anything at all i.e. does he make things happen?

Or perhaps he just kick-started the universe then sat back and watched what happenned?

Did he invent the laws of physics? And are there other universes with different laws?

In short, what did he do in the past and what does he do now?

Please don't think I am mocking you with these questions. I am genuinely interested in your beliefs.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Magpie]

Hi all
Do atheists believe in the spirits soul or ghosts or the supernatural?

Depends on the atheist and the reason for their atheism.

I believe in ghosts--I don't believe that ghosts are supernatural.

[Robert]

Defining "supernatural" is a tall order in itself.

As for the laws of physics, I think they're just percentages.

Actually, there is one law, which is that something will happen to Tottenham Hotspur. The latest looks like being, that they will lose their manager.

[Normy]

Hi Ally, Robert, Magpie
Thanks for the answers.

On ghosts, I'd go with images caught in matter in some way. A bit like images caught on film.

[Errata]

Hello, Errata.
Can I ask you about your nebulous higher power God who doesn't care about us? Does he intervene in anything at all i.e. does he make things happen?

Or perhaps he just kick-started the universe then sat back and watched what happenned?

Did he invent the laws of physics? And are there other universes with different laws?

In short, what did he do in the past and what does he do now?

Please don't think I am mocking you with these questions. I am genuinely interested in your beliefs.

Best wishes,
Steve.

Wow. Okay. First, I should probably explain how I see, or rationalize God. Cause I like science, and I detest being called a "superstitious peasant" by my evil hag of an aunt.

Personally, I don't think God ever did anything, and currently does nothing. Whether or not he has the power to do so remains a mystery, since as far as I know he has never exercised that power.

It's like the stars. I look up at the stars and I see immortality. Anything orbiting any given star I see can look back at me with an exceptionally powerful telescope and see me 30,000 years from now. Or the beginning or the bronze age. SO no matter when I die, any particular moment in my life is frozen in time forever, because of the speed of light and the colossal distances involved.

God is like a star. He's just an observer, fellow passenger in the universe. A constant in a way humans can never be. I think he's aware of us, the way a whale is aware of a shrimp. I think he gives us a moment to collect ourselves, maybe have a good cry at the end of our lives, but I don't think we do anything other that fertilize the grass. Its like the only time a dumbo octopus and a human can physically interact is if one of us is dying. And if we accidentally haul one up from the depths, we can't save it, all we can do is make sure that it doesn't die alone, without any contact with another living being. I think he does that for us. And I think we do it for gods. I think our mythology is an epitaph for dead gods. Gods who died and reached out to us in their final moments, and birthed a religion in their passing. Maybe we can only ever meet in the transitive states.

I don't know. All I know is that I feel something out there. And I see reflections of it everywhere. Little repeating patterns and behavior. And I can look down the chain and see it, in cats, or ants, or molecules, or up the chain in planets and galaxies. But most of the universe isn't even comprised of matter. And I can't see the immaterial. But it makes sense, to me at least, that the patterns are repeated outward, in ways I can't see. That something out there looks on us the way we look on ants. I don't mean that in a bad way, I think ants are fascinating.

Now I'm Jewish, so I was raised on burning bushes and covenants. But if you ask me if that's what God is, my gut reaction is no. But since I wasn't there at the time, I allow for the possibility. I am perfectly fine with everyone's version of God being correct. Like I said, I'm with Schroedinger on this one. All possibilities are true until evidence asserts itself.

[Steven Russell]

Thanks very much for that, Errata. Fascinating.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Abby Normal]

The Universe (multiverse) is very old-maybe infinitely old. Plenty of time for a "scientific" explanation for what we call "God" , "Gods", "soul", "afterlife" etc. to happen.

The bottom line is we simply do not know the answer to these mysteries now. perhaps we will in the distant future or when we die. So I keep an open mind.

Perhaps the answers to these questions are so past us that the truth is closer to something we have not even imagined.

Anyone who claims to know, believe absolutely about any of these things,whether on the "scientific" or "religious" side may only be fooling themselves. No one is wise enough to say with absolute certainty either way.

[Robert]

You know you're getting old when the universes start to look younger.

[Limehouse]

I think this has been a very interesting thread to read and contribute to. I think almost eveyone contributing felt that the little prayer so objected to by the atheist was quite harmless and would be a very good code to adopt with or without the references at the start and the finish that make it so obviously a prayer.

I have found it quite hard at times to reply to some of the comments and feel I have presented my views and beliefs poorly as I have been trying hard not to offend anyone or imply that my chosen path is superior to anyone else's. Each individual has to find their own path but I believe that anyone who asks Jesus to come into their lives will be blessed.

Like most other people, I have had some dark times and have walked in the shadows. However, I have been upheld by my faith and however irrational people feel it is, and however much of an emotional crutch it may seem to others, it is deeply important and precious to me.

When I was 16, I was baptised in the church that I grew up in (and later married in) and as I was baptised the congregation sang a beautiful chorus that I learned in Sunday School as an eight-year-old:

Living he loved me,
Dying he saved me,
Buried he carried my sins far away,
Rising he justified freely forever,
One day he's coming,
Oh glorious day.

[Abby Normal]

I think this has been a very interesting thread to read and contribute to. I think almost eveyone contributing felt that the little prayer so objected to by the atheist was quite harmless and would be a very good code to adopt with or without the references at the start and the finish that make it so obviously a prayer.

I have found it quite hard at times to reply to some of the comments and feel I have presented my views and beliefs poorly as I have been trying hard not to offend anyone or imply that my chosen path is superior to anyone else's. Each individual has to find their own path but I believe that anyone who asks Jesus to come into their lives will be blessed.

Like most other people, I have had some dark times and have walked in the shadows. However, I have been upheld by my faith and however irrational people feel it is, and however much of an emotional crutch it may seem to others, it is deeply important and precious to me.

When I was 16, I was baptised in the church that I grew up in (and later married in) and as I was baptised the congregation sang a beautiful chorus that I learned in Sunday School as an eight-year-old:

Living he loved me,
Dying he saved me,
Buried he carried my sins far away,
Rising he justified freely forever,
One day he's coming,
Oh glorious day.

Hi Limehouse
Good post and that is a very beautiful chorus.

[Robert]

People shouldn't worry about implying that their attitude is superior. Obviously they think it is superior, or else they wouldn't have that attitude - unless they're sticking pins in paper.

[Limehouse]

Hi Limehouse
Good post and that is a very beautiful chorus.

Thank you Abby.

[Limehouse]

People shouldn't worry about implying that their attitude is superior. Obviously they think it is superior, or else they wouldn't have that attitude - unless they're sticking pins in paper.

Well then, I can't win can I? It's like that moment in The Life of Brian when Brian denies he is the Messiah and the lady says 'Only the true Messiah denies his divinity'.