Atheist Teen Gets 49 Year Old Prayer Banner Removed From School: Receives Threats

[Natalie Severn]

Nats, I hate to tell you this, but your church has just split into the atheist fundamentalists, and the fundamental atheists.

Ha Ha! good one Robert!

[Abby Normal]

In the words of the immortal Jim Morrison:

"I dont know whats going to happen, but I'm gonna get my kicks before the whole s--t house goes up in flames"

[Robert]

I guess the politic thing for an agnostic to do, is to not get involved with dark powers, just in case thy exist. A god who smites people because they worship the wrong deity is certainly a dark power in my book, and is best left alone.

[Steven Russell]

Come on, Ally. Religion is the biggest load of bollocks of all time.

[Errata]

I guess the politic thing for an agnostic to do, is to not get involved with dark powers, just in case thy exist. A god who smites people because they worship the wrong deity is certainly a dark power in my book, and is best left alone.

Well, it certainly isn't a noble pursuit, but you have to see it from their perspective. First of all, he doesn't smite anyone, just his people. Well except for the flood thing, but God admitted that was a mistake. I mean, God takes the time out of his busy schedule to show himself to these people, something Ba'al or Asherah never did, and makes a deal. They become his people, they worship him only, do what he says, and he does stuff for them. And they agree. If they go back on the deal, and start worshiping Ba'al on the side, they are punished. Not always with a smiting, but with something.

Anyone who says "Screw you I'm outta here" is free to go. Anyone who never made the Covenant in the first place is fine. It's the people who are essentially cheating that get spanked. Sort of the epitome of the "If you live in my house you will obey my rules" kinda deal.

There isn't a whole lot to love there. And you almost never hear Jews say that. I mean, he's not a Santa Claus god where you sit on his lap and tell him what you want. The god of Abraham has a lot more in common with the Greek or Celtic gods than with the Christian one. We see him as fair and just, but not kind. He is merciful, but only compared to his own history. He doesn't interfere, even when he should. He has already made his promises to us, and he isn't going to alter the deal, no matter how bad it gets. Clearly he was perfectly willing to let us die in the Nazi death camps. His part of the bargain is done. And has been for a long time. And we don't have to be alive for the endgame, when the messiah comes etc. So our continued existence is up to us, and for all I know he feels bad about the holocaust thing, but he technically He is a deadbeat dad. He's just not in our lives anymore. Hasn't been since Biblical times really. But he made us who we are, and for that we give thanks. He brought us out of the desert, He brought us out of slavery, He made a covenant with us and gave us a home. And as we say at Passover, "Dayenu". Which means, "it would have been enough". And it is enough for praise and thanks. Which we give. But it's not enough for love and unquestioning obedience, which we have never given.

He is a different god than the Christian god. And we don't expect the same things Christians expect. And the all powerful, all knowing, all caring god is a pretty new invention. And I hope he is all that he is supposed to be, or Christians are going to go down in history as the most seriously disappointed religion of all time. But historically speaking, that is not what a god is SUPPOSED to be, and sometimes I feel that people who are atheists because they cannot believe in that kind of god are not really atheists at all. Or maybe they are, but being an atheist because you can't believe in the Christian god makes about as much sense as being an Anarchist because you don't believe that a Republic can ever truly function. There are a whole lot of other options to reject before you can really be either.

[Ally]

Anyone who says "Screw you I'm outta here" is free to go. Anyone who never made the Covenant in the first place is fine. It's the people who are essentially cheating that get spanked. Sort of the epitome of the "If you live in my house you will obey my rules" kinda deal.

There isn't a whole lot to love there. And you almost never hear Jews say that. I mean, he's not a Santa Claus god where you sit on his lap and tell him what you want. The god of Abraham has a lot more in common with the Greek or Celtic gods than with the Christian one. We see him as fair and just, but not kind. He is merciful, but only compared to his own history. He doesn't interfere, even when he should. He has already made his promises to us, and he isn't going to alter the deal, no matter how bad it gets. Clearly he was perfectly willing to let us die in the Nazi death camps. His part of the bargain is done. And has been for a long time. And we don't have to be alive for the endgame, when the messiah comes etc. So our continued existence is up to us, and for all I know he feels bad about the holocaust thing, but he technically He is a deadbeat dad. He's just not in our lives anymore. Hasn't been since Biblical times really. But he made us who we are, and for that we give thanks. He brought us out of the desert, He brought us out of slavery, He made a covenant with us and gave us a home. And as we say at Passover, "Dayenu". Which means, "it would have been enough". And it is enough for praise and thanks. Which we give. But it's not enough for love and unquestioning obedience, which we have never given.

He is a different god than the Christian god. And we don't expect the same things Christians expect. And the all powerful, all knowing, all caring god is a pretty new invention. And I hope he is all that he is supposed to be, or Christians are going to go down in history as the most seriously disappointed religion of all time. But historically speaking, that is not what a god is SUPPOSED to be, and sometimes I feel that people who are atheists because they cannot believe in that kind of god are not really atheists at all. Or maybe they are, but being an atheist because you can't believe in the Christian god makes about as much sense as being an Anarchist because you don't believe that a Republic can ever truly function. There are a whole lot of other options to reject before you can really be either.

I find it interesting that people would admit that their god is basically a petty spiteful, irrational tyrant prone to flooding the world (but it's all good he said "my bad" afterwards")...and still they worship him. That's basically saying, yes I am in an emotionally abusive hostage situation, but I love him so I am staying.

What EXACTLY is there to worship in that? What exactly do you get out of it? Why adjust your life around the whims of someone who behaves worse than a toddler on a sugar rush throwing a tantrum?

I am not an atheist because I don't believe in the Christian god, I am an atheist because I don't believe in any of them. They are all pretty ludicrous.

Judaism: It's not just the flood and god doesn't just expect obedience by his people. Canaan, Soddom and Gomorrhah, killing of the firstborn, etc. He's an irrational little prick.

Islam: Basically the same thing.

Christianity: Basically the same thing with the added WTF of a savior sent to earth who is the sole salvation of mankind who is sent 2000 years before there was a faster mode of transportation than foot travel, ensuring billions of people were damned by virtue of geography and the fact they have no freaking clue who this guy was. I mean there was a well thought out plan.

Hinduism: That **** is so complicated that I don't think even hindus understand it. They just fake it and nod in appropriate places. Plus hamburgers are tasty.

And on and on. Atheism is not about denying the Christian faith, it is about recognizing that religion is primarily an emotional crutch and we feel we can dispense with it.

[Robert]

Hi Errata

Interesting post. Perhaps theology is for butterfly collectors, while the authentic religious experience is beyond words - Pascal's God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob. I seem to remember Martin Buber quoting a Hasidic interpretation of this Jewish text, in which the repetition of "God of" is explained as emphasizing the importance of personal discovery - a god for each person. I have never had such an experience and never will, but I'll admit that some have - or think they have. At the end of the day, though, it's people I admire rather than gods.

[Errata]

I find it interesting that people would admit that their god is basically a petty spiteful, irrational tyrant prone to flooding the world (but it's all good he said "my bad" afterwards")...and still they worship him. That's basically saying, yes I am in an emotionally abusive hostage situation, but I love him so I am staying.

What EXACTLY is there to worship in that? What exactly do you get out of it? Why adjust your life around the whims of someone who behaves worse than a toddler on a sugar rush throwing a tantrum?

I am not an atheist because I don't believe in the Christian god, I am an atheist because I don't believe in any of them. They are all pretty ludicrous.

...

And on and on. Atheism is not about denying the Christian faith, it is about recognizing that religion is primarily an emotional crutch and we feel we can dispense with it.

Well, it's complicated, and there may be some truth in the emotionally abusive scenario for some people. Not for me though (I know. They all say that.)

I don't worship G-d. I thank him for what he has done for my people. And I suppose I would praise him if I thought he deserved it. Mostly I don't think about him at all. But I've never been taught anything that would say to me that I am supposed to think that God is better than I am. We don't grovel for instance. We don't get on our knees, we don't prostrate ourselves. During what are considered the holiest moments of a service, we stand. Now, I certainly can't flood the world, so he's got some skills I respect. But his attitude clearly sucks. And I'm not supposed to excuse that, and I don't.

We don't see God the way others do. He isn't some constant presence in our lives, constantly over our shoulder and keeping a hand in. He isn't the Benevolent Almighty. He's a guy we have a deal with. We don't talk, we don't keep track. He may be a god, but we don't even know what that means. Flooding clearly, columns of flame, but there are men out there who can clearly wreak a lot of destruction if they want to. So that's not special. I don't know that he is immortal, or invincible, or omniscient. I don't know that he has limitless power. Evidently, there are a lot of things either he cannot do, or does not care to do, and I can't tell which. He exists. The way the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs exists. They both have the power to royally screw up my world, but they aren't better than me for that. I am equally appreciative of my plumber as I am of God. I pay him, he does his job, but I can't do it so I appreciate not having to do it. But our relationship with God is about what he did, not what he does. Because he does nothing.

And I did not mean to imply that there are no atheists. Just that there are quite a few who think that a Christian god is ludicrous, and never look further.

Just as I'm sure you did not mean to imply that all those who believe in God have an emotional crutch. Because I can assure you that I have never benefited from this particular notion, and would trade it for a sandwich.

[Ally]

Just as I'm sure you did not mean to imply that all those who believe in God have an emotional crutch. Because I can assure you that I have never benefited from this particular notion, and would trade it for a sandwich.

I have already stated that all of my comments should be read as containing plenty of in my opinions so I don't feel the need to keep doing it, but yes, in my opinion all people use religion as an emotional crutch. What else is it used for? Religions of all sorts were basically designed to be emotional crutches. To explain the unknowable, to provide reasons for what occurs and to alleviate fear and help those who can't walk their way through the world without some "higher" belief. That's pretty much the definition of religion, "Even though you cannot understand this crazy world, just follow these rules and it will all be alright in the end, don't worry your little head about it, just obey". That's religion in a nutshell.

Also, I think you are being untruthful (not lying, but not honest....I can't find a better word for what I mean but I am not calling you a liar) when you make claims like "I would trade my belief for a sandwich" and other statements about the relatively little value you place on your relationship with god and religion. Because if that were really the case, and you actually considered it so easily dispensed with, you would have dispensed with it by now. People do not continue to lug around things that they find so little value in, and they certainly don't feel the need to attempt to explain or rationalize things that have no more meaning than a turkey sandwich. It's like the ex-girlfriend who keeps going on and on about how worthless and horrible and how much she hates her ex and then says emphatically "I am so over him" and then keeps on. And we all believe her too.

You seem to want to minimize the fact that you believe there's this invisible dude, always just sort of hovering out there, that you've never seen and isn't really a force or motivation in your life, but nonetheless you believe he's out there. Like bigfoot, only with ceremony.

[Errata]

You seem to want to minimize the fact that you believe there's this invisible dude, always just sort of hovering out there, that you've never seen and isn't really a force or motivation in your life, but nonetheless you believe he's out there. Like bigfoot, only with ceremony.

But Bigfoot is way cooler, because he's blurry.

I know you aren't accusing me of lying. It's not easy to articulate, especially when my beliefs are nowhere near the majority beliefs. When it all comes down to it, no matter what the religious structure is, you either believe in god(s) or you don't. And there are some very fascinating brain studies in which certain parts of the brain can be stimulated in order to produce a religious like experience. And if it turns out it's a cosmic brain fart, I'm okay with that. But when I close my eyes, especially if I'm about to fall asleep I sense something other. That there is something very different out there, but just on the edge of perception. Kind of like how you can tell sometimes that someone is staring at you even if your back is turned to them, or walk into a pitch black room and know you aren't alone. To me, thats God.

And I did try for years to not believe. Religion was really not improving my life starting at about age 10. I got beaten up for it a couple of times, God wasn't nearly as useful as he could be... By the time I was 12 and I got sick, I was truly pissed. So I walked away. First I became a pagan, because the Goddess seemed a lot nicer. But I didn't believe it. And then I was nothing... and I told everyone I was an atheist, but every time something else went wrong (which was a lot) I got pissed at God again. by 16 or 17 I stopped blaming him for everything, and I could never go back to some sort of friendly relationship, but I never managed to stop believing. So I have this God I don't want to believe in, I don't like, I don't respect, but that I can't convince myself is not there. It's almost exactly like having some deadbeat loser dad. Just because he has not been a pleasant part of your life, and has not been any part of your life for a long time doesn't mean he doesn't exist. It means he's an *******.

Of course when the ******* never takes corporeal form, it makes things extra strange. I would rather not believe. It would be easier. Especially since I am the only non atheist in my family and my circle of friends. I'm not especially fond of being called "The superstitious peasant" by my father's family. But that sense of something other never goes away. And I can't see it and I don't know what it is. I call it God, and I pour it into a mold based on my early education in Judaism. That lets me label it and store it appropriately. It could be the mental equivalent of eye floaters. I really hope it's not aliens.

I suspect that God is literally a creation of man, thought made into form that requires thought to live. And maybe gods die when no one follows them. In a way that would make sense. Every man made construct from justice to chevrolets dies without our participation. So yeah, the whole invisible stalker dude floating over my head part is weird. But I don't talk to the guy, he's just out there doing whatever. Kind of like gravity. Not always your friend, mostly ignored, completely non interactive on any personal level. Just a constant. And I'm all right with him on that level. I honestly don't know what would have happened if things had been different. Maybe I would have been a fervent believer, the rest of my family hopped off the faith train pretty easily, so maybe I would have succeeded in atheism. As it stands, there is a very fine line in my reality in which God operates, no more no less. Probably some sort of demilitarized zone between my logical mind and my metaphysical mind.

[Garry Wroe]

in my opinion all people use religion as an emotional crutch. What else is it used for?

A power mechanism allowing a small number of people to control a much larger population.

[Ally]

A power mechanism allowing a small number of people to control a much larger population.

Well yes of course, but I was speaking about true believers on a personal level, and what they get out of it on a day to day basis, the Mary Sue Farmerwife in BFE, Nebraska who is being led by the crazy power dealers manipulating her with her beliefs. A shovel is still a shovel with a primary purpose, even if a small percentage of people pick it up and use it to bash someone's head in. Religion was invented first, and then those in charge saw an opportunity to use that against people, not the other way around. But yes, I should have picked my words better and stated what else is it used for on a personal level.

The mindset of those who would use beliefs as tool are less interesting to me than the sheep who follow and allow themselves to be led. And if it were not religion it would be something else Capitalism vs Socialism, Conservative vs, Liberal etc.

"The liberals are going to turn this country into a socialist hell if everyone has access to health care!!"

On a total side note, I do find CHRISTIANS who are fighting against everyone having access to health care to be particularly perplexing. REALLY? I mean really? Have you actually READ about Jesus?

That's not really the fault of religion, that's the strategy of men and women who will use anything to sway the herd their way. I haven't had my coffee yet and appear to be rambling. Back after I am caffeinated.

[Robert]

Errata, what do you mean, you thank him for what he has done for your people?

[Errata]

Errata, what do you mean, you thank him for what he has done for your people?

Well, according to the books, he gathered us together as a nation, took us out of the desert into the promised land, led us out of slavery etc.

And if that's true, thanks for that, you know? But mostly what he has done for us is that he gathered us together, gave us a starting point, and sent us on our merry way. God gives Jews their identity, as "the chosen ones". Granted that and a quarter will get you a phone call, but it's the glue that has kept the Jewish Community together over the millennia. Personally I think we a re a culture worth preserving. Some might disagree.

During the Holocaust, which is probably the darkest time we ever faced, there was a peculiar attitude in the camps. Clearly the Jews felt abandoned by G-d. Many were angry, many were confused, most were very hurt. But few stopped believing. They stopped believing in G-d the way some people stop believing in the justice system, but they didn't stop believing in him the way people stop believing in Santa Claus. The consensus was that He just wasn't there. Not didn't exist, wasn't there. He was elsewhere.

But in spite of that, Jewish education continued in the camps. Services were still held in secret. People went to a great amount of trouble to reconstruct the holy books from memory, tiny versions that could be hidden. And some books were hidden so that they would survive. They were found in deserted camps buried, or tucked in a wall. The belief in G-d, and in our culture and in our community held us together. We lost a quarter of our population, but we survived.

The belief in God and our way of life as dictated by God's laws got us through. Not unscathed, and not unchanged, but we're still here. And a lot of that is due to the attitude that "God didn't lead us out of slavery for us to die in Poland. He thought we were worth enough to become his chosen people, and I'm not going to let a crazy eyed midget tell me otherwise"

So since I believe in God, thanks for being something to hold onto in our darkest hours. Thanks for giving us a way to believing in ourselves when no one else did. Thanks for being the step up for self worth. For being an emotional crutch that got us walking again. Men did the work, and God was just a symbol, but it doesn't matter.

I remember when I was just so sick, and I was in yet another hospital, there was this daffodil that grew way too early. And I watched that flower bend over flat during the ice storms, and just battle the cold, every day. By the time I left the weather was lovely, the daffodil still stood there, and I am to this day absurdly grateful for that little flower who didn't do anything except exist. I called him Lester, and he gave me something else to think about, something else to believe in. He became my symbol.

I did the work, and I suppose I could have done it without him. But I didn't have to. So I'm grateful to Lester the Daffodil, and I'm grateful to God. And yes, it is weird that I lump them into the same category. I'm okay with it. I am under no illusions that there is any reason or logic attached to these things.

[Robert]

You see, the reason I asked is that you had been talking about your god as though he was an impersonal force of nature, and sort of saying "Yeah there's this old guy with a beard and we have to keep on the right side of him" etc - but then you mention your people and it's clear that your people are actually defined by means of this god. So it seems to me there is a weird dichotomy here because on the one hand god is something you just have to put up with but on the other hand he's the very basis of your existence.