Atheist Teen Gets 49 Year Old Prayer Banner Removed From School: Receives Threats

[Errata]

I should think people cherry pick through their religious texts. I mean, when was the last time you saw someone sacrifice an unblemished lamb?

I think that religious people, or people of a specific faith have two choices. They can cull what works for them, or they can surrender their judgement to what doesn't work for them. I think the latter is deadly. God may know better than me, (maybe) but that doesn't mean the guys who wrote the books know better than me, or the guys interpreting the books. Anyone who surrenders their judgement to another is a fool, and a dangerous one. It's no different than when a doctor tells you that you need a surgery you are pretty sure you don't need. His medical knowledge may be greater, but your knowledge of your body is greater. Hopefully, people don't surrender their judgement, and get a second opinion. Those who do get what they deserve.

Personally, I'm not sure I see something worthy of worship in my god. Which kind of makes him creepy lurking guy, but whatever. No text or philosopher can tell me what my relationship with G-d should be. Well, they can, but that doesn't mean that is what my relationship with G-d WILL be. And it isn't. And I can't change that. And I'm not going to surrender my judgement to some guy who has been dead about 1200 years. I figure if I was meant to, I wouldn't have my own judgement to surrender.

[Robert]

Errata, put yourself in Abe's shoes. Kill Isaac?

[Errata]

Errata, put yourself in Abe's shoes. Kill Isaac?

I honestly can't say. First of all, I'm not a huge fan of kids. But I've never had God talk to me, he certainly hasn't made ME any promises, and I've never seen any evidence of the divine whatsoever. So based on that, hell no.

But if I had Abraham's relationship with God? I don't know. There would be a hell of an argument. But if me and God had been talking for years and years, and I was convinced that he had never let me down, never broken a promise, and that He wouldn't ask something like this of me unless it was absolutely necessary... I can't say that I would do it, but it would be very hard for me not to.

I think interacting with the divine is different than interacting with that Divinity's religion. If the Pope told me that God commanded me to go take back the Holy Land back from the heathens, then the Pope can go to hell. If God commanded me to go do it, well still probably not unless he had an insanely good reason, like, the world will end if I don't.

Of course, the big question is, how do you know it's God and not your subconscious or a delusion? One of the reasons I'm pretty fond of Judaism. We get burning bushes, we get columns of flame, we get standing in your tent in front of you, angels, all that. We don't get whispers in the night. So if my cat walks up to me on fire with wings and in a deep voice says "Fear Not!" that's spectacular enough for me to at least listen to what He has to say. If I wake up with a vague feeling that God wanted me to do something, then that was just the sandwich I had before bed.

[Ally]

There is a difference in cherry picking minutia and the kind of thought that disregards the primary foundation of ones religion (i.e. Christ is the only path to salvation) while clinging to the minutia.

However, the entire premise of most religions is "surrendering the idea that you know better to God's judgment". That's why there's all those ridiculous hoops one must jump through, to prove one's belief and faith.

If you are cherry picking, you are saying you know better than god, and therefore, you are above god, so really, why do you worship him or her in the first place if you know better and your judgment is better? What precisely is there to worship in someone you believe you have more common sense than? If you look at your god's commandments and consider them largely irrational, why would you worship an irrational god? If you don't believe in the rightness of the "guys who wrote the book" then what value does ANY part of the book have? If you can say, "well they probably got this wrong or had an agenda for this, or this doesn't work NOW" then what value does any part of the book have? If it is shaped by the opinions of men, then it is not the divine text of god, and is completely without value in interpreting god. It is either one group of men's opinions and therefore worthless to anyone but those men, or it is a divine text inspired by the deity. It can't be both.

You cannot honestly say you are a "insert religion here" if you believe most of it is bunk and just choose the parts you like to practice.


*insert lots of "in my opinions, as I see it, from my perspective. etc...." in the above and in all posts of mine from here on out.

[Robert]

It seems to me (as a mere outsider) that in Judaism the primary thing is the relationship between man and god, with ethics being secondary. Or putting it another way, faith comes first (where "faith" means, more or less, "love.")

In ancient days it wasn't really a question of having faith in the existence of a deity. As someone said, the danger wasn't that a man would have no god - but that he would have too many!

[Robert]

I suppose one can have a religion without having a body of doctrine or set of commandments - but it would be a purely personal one and couldn't be the basis for a church.

I think one does have to just get on with it and try to steer one's own path, although knowing that one is being genuinely authentic and not subconsciously following some authority figure or herd group is difficult enough.

[Ally]

I am seriously considering forming my own church. You can make a mint! I am going to call it The Reflexive Church. I already have my Ten Truths and our holy day is Monday.


Tax free fortune here I come.

[ChainzCooper]

My personal opinion as to why otherwise rational people believe in a deity is simple: fear of death and personal ego. They are afraid and they cannot fathom that they do not matter at all in this universe. There has to be something out there that makes them special and a belief in a creator that designed the entire world just so they could inhabit it fills an emotional need and also provides a support system so that they won't just "wink out" of existence.

Fear and ego. That's my opinion only.

That is the difference between your belief system and those who are spiritual and/or religious. See, I used to think that way for a short time until I sat down and started thinking about it.Look at everything around you, the joy of life and creation, I don't think it happened by accident and that you don't matter in the universe. But I guess if you do then more power to you. Theres something going on here, more than you just disappearing out of existence
Jordan

[Limehouse]

This is the main problem I have with religion. People cherry pick what parts out of it they want to follow and ignore the rest. It makes those of us of a rational bent completely nuts. You state that "christians are required to be humble". Fine, no arguments there. But Christ also said that he is the one true path, the way and the light and that no one comes to god but through him.

So if you can so easily discard the main teaching of what your messiah stated, the entire foundation of your religion even, why would you choose to cling to such a minor tenet of his preaching as humbleness?

You are throwing away the meat to pick at the bones.

OK, you make some fair points and I think that in my last post I explained myself badly. When I stated that I don't believe that I have found the 'one true way' what I meant was that for me, Christianity is the path I have chosen so obvioulsy it is the right path for me and I believe in it, but that does not mean I disregard or disrespect different paths that have been chosen by others for themselves.

I also believe that when Jesus said 'I am the way and the light and no one comes to the Father but through me' he meant that he is the direct path to God and that an individual does not need an intermediary such as a priest or a rabbi in order to pray or to ask for forgiveness or to offer adoration.

[Natalie Severn]

I am going to call my church the church of atheist fundamentalists!

[Robert]

Nats, I hate to tell you this, but your church has just split into the atheist fundamentalists, and the fundamental atheists.

[Ally]

OK, you make some fair points and I think that in my last post I explained myself badly. When I stated that I don't believe that I have found the 'one true way' what I meant was that for me, Christianity is the path I have chosen so obvioulsy it is the right path for me and I believe in it, but that does not mean I disregard or disrespect different paths that have been chosen by others for themselves.

I also believe that when Jesus said 'I am the way and the light and no one comes to the Father but through me' he meant that he is the direct path to God and that an individual does not need an intermediary such as a priest or a rabbi in order to pray or to ask for forgiveness or to offer adoration.

I don't see your interpretation in what was stated. Jesus said he is the way and no one comes to the father except through him. That's not "You can come to god directly through me without an intermediary (although wouldn't that make him an intermediary?)", that's "if you don't come through me: you don't come."

If I say, "you cannot come in my house but that I open the door for you" that doesn't mean "you can come in the window, but it's easier to just go in the door".

Now again, I grant that all the stuff about Jesus being the one true and only path is solely found in John amongst the gospels, which is about the most dodgy book of the Bible there is, but it cannot be denied what is there.

Christianity is founded on the principle that Jesus Christ was the enfleshed embodiment of god, and he died for the sins of the world, the supreme sacrifice. If there are many paths to god, why did he bother doing that then?

[Errata]

There is a difference in cherry picking minutia and the kind of thought that disregards the primary foundation of ones religion (i.e. Christ is the only path to salvation) while clinging to the minutia.

However, the entire premise of most religions is "surrendering the idea that you know better to God's judgment". That's why there's all those ridiculous hoops one must jump through, to prove one's belief and faith.

If you are cherry picking, you are saying you know better than god, and therefore, you are above god, so really, why do you worship him or her in the first place if you know better and your judgment is better? What precisely is there to worship in someone you believe you have more common sense than? If you look at your god's commandments and consider them largely irrational, why would you worship an irrational god? If you don't believe in the rightness of the "guys who wrote the book" then what value does ANY part of the book have? If you can say, "well they probably got this wrong or had an agenda for this, or this doesn't work NOW" then what value does any part of the book have? If it is shaped by the opinions of men, then it is not the divine text of god, and is completely without value in interpreting god. It is either one group of men's opinions and therefore worthless to anyone but those men, or it is a divine text inspired by the deity. It can't be both.

You cannot honestly say you are a "insert religion here" if you believe most of it is bunk and just choose the parts you like to practice.


*insert lots of "in my opinions, as I see it, from my perspective. etc...." in the above and in all posts of mine from here on out.

Hahah. Got it. Well, we only have the Old Testament, so I leave the Jesus thing for others to argue. But if you read the Old Testament, it never says there is only one god, or one way. It says if you are a Jew there is only one god you are allowed, and only one way (well, really three, but whatever) to interact with him. Oh. And he got pissed off and flooded the world. So basically, it's "Do what I say, and I will give you a better patch of desert and some form of celestial reward that I'm not going to tell a damn thing about. Don't do what I say, and I will smite you. Your kids first, just to make you suffer and then you."

It's totally a protection racket. And we put up with it because the rules aren't actually so bad, and it's not like we can smite back. So, I don't run any protection rackets, which gives me a moral leg up on God. I'm pretty damn sure I'm a better human being than God ever was. I'm not exactly sure what being a deity entails, but mine has been doing it for about 6000 years without being overthrown by the neighboring gods, so I guess he's good at it. Personally, I prefer that we stick to our own strengths. I don't tell him how to smite, or plague or deploy angels or whatever. He doesn't tell me how to be a person.

In a cosmic sense, I don't know that God is better than me. I was never taught that he was all powerful, or all knowing, or that he even gives a crap about us anymore than people give a crap about a goldfish. And I don't worship him. I respect him the way you respect a rattlesnake. Likely it ignores you, but you give him plenty of room in case he tries to eat your face. God exists the way Finland exists. I know it's out there. but I don't know where or why. I've never seen either. Or to put it another way, God is kind of my Higgs boson. The ordering of my universe assumes he's there, that there is no direct evidence of such doesn't matter as long as the math works out. When the math stops working I assume I will reevaluate. So I might know better than God. I'm sure I know more than the guys who wrote the book. Like, CPR, pasteurization, how to use a lightswitch. In a way, it's like baseball. Knowing the old rules is important for tradition and History. But knowing the new rules is important if you're actually going to play. So the old books and the ancient authors have value. They have studied the minutia of the law. But since they didn't lay out any exceptions for having to stay in the room when the torah is out (about 90 minutes) but didn't foresee diuretic medication, I gotta trust my gut on that kind of call.

[Errata]

Christianity is founded on the principle that Jesus Christ was the enfleshed embodiment of god, and he died for the sins of the world, the supreme sacrifice. If there are many paths to god, why did he bother doing that then?

Maybe because he was Jewish? It sound exactly like something my grandmother would do. "No no... go find your own path to salvation. Never mind I died for you. I hung myself on a cross for three days for you, but don't mind my suffering. Go, Be a Buddhist... I'll just hang here... alone... waiting for you to call."

[Limehouse]

Maybe because he was Jewish? It sound exactly like something my grandmother would do. "No no... go find your own path to salvation. Never mind I died for you. I hung myself on a cross for three days for you, but don't mind my suffering. Go, Be a Buddhist... I'll just hang here... alone... waiting for you to call."

lol! Was your grandmother Woody Allen?

I can perfectly relate to that. I grew up surrounded by those wonderful Jewish women, who were neighbours of ours. One used to moan to my mother about her husband: 'I get up at 5 and make seed cake for him to take to work. He loves seed cake. He goes to work. He leaves the seed cake on the dresser. What if I did only get four hours sleep?'