Atheist Teen Gets 49 Year Old Prayer Banner Removed From School: Receives Threats

[Limehouse]

I enjoyed Errata's post where she makes a pretty good case for religious faith being a sort of endearing nuttiness. This may well be true in her case.

However, religion can't be dismissed as eccentricity because it's extremely dangerous! The trouble is, many people of faith see their belief as proof of moral superiority and an endorsement of whatever else they might believe in.

Contrastingly, many people of faith are very humble and make considerable personal sacrifices in order to serve others. I am afraid to say, i do not fall into this category. However, I am far from morally superior. In fact, my faith causes me to constantly examine my morality and behaviour and pray often for the strength to do better!

Also, Steven, with respect, I think some people without faith consider themsleves intellectually superior, because their belief system is often based on empricism and 'logic'.

[Steven Russell]

Contrastingly, many people of faith are very humble and make considerable personal sacrifices in order to serve others. I am afraid to say, i do not fall into this category. However, I am far from morally superior. In fact, my faith causes me to constantly examine my morality and behaviour and pray often for the strength to do better!

Also, Steven, with respect, I think some people without faith consider themsleves intellectually superior, because their belief system is often based on empricism and 'logic'.

I think you have inadvertently proved my point in your first paragraph, Limehouse. You are better than me because you believe in a load of bunkum.

As for your second paragraph, thanks for the respect. Perhaps you would like to tell me why a belief system based on empiricism [correct spelling by the way] and logic is inferior to one based on fairy tales.

[Limehouse]

I think you have inadvertently proved my point in your first paragraph, Limehouse. You are better than me because you believe in a load of bunkum.

As for your second paragraph, thanks for the respect. Perhaps you would like to tell me why a belief system based on empiricism [correct spelling by the way] and logic is inferior to one based on fairy tales.

Steven,

I was trying hard to demonstrate that I do not consider myself to be superior just because I have a faith. I have previously stated my respect for people of all faiths and of no faith at all. I have never implied I am better than you.

Thank you for your cspelling correction. I am actually OK at spelling but poor at typing and proof-reading because I have a visual disability. I do not believe empiricism or logic are inferior belief systems and my post never implied that.

I have tried to be polite and respectful but it seems that I cannot win so I'll just give up trying.

[Steven Russell]

You were polite and respectful, Limehouse and I thank you for that. What surprises me is how intelligent people such as yourself can believe such an obvious load of claptrap.

[niko]

La religion es un tema delicado.

Hi everyone, I was paptized "Greek Orthodox" by my Greek farther, my Basque grandparent's brought me up untill the age of seven the "Roman Catholic" way, then the British school's which I attended were "Church of England. So I ask myself, to which of this religion's do I belong to ? (Christian I supose).

My religion today is.... I think "Live and let live". I respect all religion's, as they all have one thing in common, which is that they show man and woman to be good, BUT I think to be a good person you don't need to be of any religion, remember "live and let live" in all aspect's, all the best, agur.

niko

[caz]

Contrastingly, many people of faith are very humble and make considerable personal sacrifices in order to serve others. I am afraid to say, i do not fall into this category. However, I am far from morally superior. In fact, my faith causes me to constantly examine my morality and behaviour and pray often for the strength to do better!

Hi Limehouse,

The thing is, one doesn't need to believe in God to be humble and make considerable personal sacrifices for others. One doesn't need such faith to constantly examine one's morality and behaviour either. If you believe in God, he has already given every one of us the inner strength to do better. Those of us who don't believe, but have the will to do better, can do so without prayer.

Or don't you believe that?

I'm just trying to work out what comparison you are making here between believers and non-believers. To me it appears to boil down to believers needing to pray to God for the strength to do better, and non-believers conjuring it up just fine by themselves.

Where does faith in God and eternal life leave all the living creatures who don't happen to be human? Do they have a rotten time of it because no God exists for them? God only exists for humankind because our minds are complex enough to explore and question how and why we came into being. But the animals have to fend for themselves. They can't pray and they can't choose to believe in God as their creator, so they get none of the 'perks' of faith. Seems rather divisive to me. What has my cat ever done to deserve such a fate?

Love,

Caz
X

[Limehouse]

Hi Limehouse,

The thing is, one doesn't need to believe in God to be humble and make considerable personal sacrifices for others. One doesn't need such faith to constantly examine one's morality and behaviour either. If you believe in God, he has already given every one of us the inner strength to do better. Those of us who don't believe, but have the will to do better, can do so without prayer.

Or don't you believe that?

I'm just trying to work out what comparison you are making here between believers and non-believers. To me it appears to boil down to believers needing to pray to God for the strength to do better, and non-believers conjuring it up just fine by themselves.


Where does faith in God and eternal life leave all the living creatures who don't happen to be human? Do they have a rotten time of it because no God exists for them? God only exists for humankind because our minds are complex enough to explore and question how and why we came into being. But the animals have to fend for themselves. They can't pray and they can't choose to believe in God as their creator, so they get none of the 'perks' of faith. Seems rather divisive to me. What has my cat ever done to deserve such a fate?

Love,

Caz
X

You are quite right Caz, people can be humble and serve others without having a faith. Obviously, if you are a non believer, you still have the capacity, will and strength to do well and to do better and to seek to live a moral and worthy life. However, as I have always had a faith, I cannot know from where I would draw strenghth if I didn't have a faith. It's the faith that is at the centre of the belief. Non-believers believe they can do fine without God and believers believe that God helps them and guides them.

My parents were Christians, although they didn't force Christianity down my throat. I lost my parents quite early in life and experienced some pretty difficult times. My faith and my Christian family (members of my church) upheld me and supported me - as did my non-Christian friends.

It's not about making judgements between believers and non-believers or about measuring worthiness - it's just personal to me.

As for the non-creatures of the earth - well a theologian would say that they are without conscious sin and therefore have no case to answer and receive God's blessing regardless. However, I am not a theologian but I am an animal lover and especially a cat lover and I am therefore just like anyone else who loves animals - responsible for their care and welfare. Indeed, Paradise is supposed to be awash with creatures of all types

Hope this answers your questions.

Julie

[Ally]

Okay first I want to say I don't particularly think being humble is a GOOD trait, but we will argue from the premise that most people do ( I tend to believe that one should work oneself in such a matter that the person you are and the things you do, you should take pride in, and be worthy of being proud about, and those who teach humility are one step from teaching shame, [humility/humiliation--so close] but again, different strokes for different folks).

However, I don't see how any group of people who believe that they have the monopoly on "salvation" could ever be considered humble no matter how self-effacing they might be in all other respects. Such certainty is the very opposite of humbleness. And again, I realize not all religions are this arrogant as to believe that they have the "one true path", but surely amongst those that do, humble is not a word that can be associated with their belief?? And of course, there are just as many "believers" who are arrogant and do bad works as there are atheists who are kind and do good works. They do good works not because they are "required" but because they personally feel it is the right thing to do.

[Ally]

You were polite and respectful, Limehouse and I thank you for that. What surprises me is how intelligent people such as yourself can believe such an obvious load of claptrap.

You know what I find amusing, is that you just proved Limehouse's point about people without faith who automatically assume that people of faith are stupid. The clear implication in the above is that intelligent people can't believe in obvious claptrap, therefore faith is stupid. Lots of intelligent people do things that are not rational, every single day. I am sure that in any given day, the most intelligent person on earth commits ten to twenty acts of pure irrationality, when viewed from the wider perspective. Faith is based on emotion, not reason, so intelligence has nothing to do with it, they can be "intelligent" and still distressingly "emotional". Usually when emotion is involved, reason turns off.

And while I agree that religion is a particularly dangerous and destructive irrationality, like with any weapon, it largely depends on who is wielding it. Yes, the Christian and Muslims sects have been particularly destructive on a global scale for the last couple of centuries, but there are some other religions going along, minding their own and living their lives. It's not universal religions that are destructive, it's the tenets of religions that teach that theirs is the one true path that cause the damage.

[Magpie]

I hate to be nitpicky (but is it really possible to discuss religion without being nitpicky?) but we see to be drifting into a false dichotomy of believer=religion=Christian versus unbeliever=irreligious=atheist.

It seems to be a natural default to use the terms as if they're interchangeably, but they aren't. I'm an unbeliever (at least as far as Abrahamic religions are concerned), an atheist, but I'm religious. Believers who are irreligious are far from uncommon. And of course Christians are far from the only game in town.

[caz]

It's not about making judgements between believers and non-believers or about measuring worthiness - it's just personal to me.

Hi Limehouse,

Other people's faith in God only begins to bother me when they don't treat it as 'personal' to them. As with anyone's sexuality, it ain't my business unless someone is hell-bent on making it my business. But unlike sexuality, faith in God is a personal choice, based on our experiences and what we learn as we grow up. Some religions demand that followers spend their lives trying to gather in more followers - which appears to be the opposite of allowing it to be 'personal' to the individual.

I do have a problem with the idea of Paradise being awash with cats and dogs, while human beings who, through no fault of their own, had similarly never heard the 'word of God' were considered lost souls until the missionaries came to educate them.

Love,

Caz
X

[Limehouse]

Okay first I want to say I don't particularly think being humble is a GOOD trait, but we will argue from the premise that most people do ( I tend to believe that one should work oneself in such a matter that the person you are and the things you do, you should take pride in, and be worthy of being proud about, and those who teach humility are one step from teaching shame, [humility/humiliation--so close] but again, different strokes for different folks).

However, I don't see how any group of people who believe that they have the monopoly on "salvation" could ever be considered humble no matter how self-effacing they might be in all other respects. Such certainty is the very opposite of humbleness. And again, I realize not all religions are this arrogant as to believe that they have the "one true path", but surely amongst those that do, humble is not a word that can be associated with their belief?? And of course, there are just as many "believers" who are arrogant and do bad works as there are atheists who are kind and do good works. They do good works not because they are "required" but because they personally feel it is the right thing to do.

But many, many religious people do not believe they have the monopoly on salvation. I do not believe that being a Christian makes me any more worthy than someone who is Muslim or Humanist or any other type of believer.

Neither do I believe that I follow the 'one true path'. I follow the path I believe in and respect people who choose a different path.

Concerning humbleness. Christians are required to be humble. 2 Chronicles commands "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, pray and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, forgive their sins and heal their land".

I believe that other faiths also require humbleness.

[Robert]

I do not particularly admire humility, and I believe that a good dose of pride is admirable. But that's just my personal taste, or morality.

I do not have any religious faith. On the other hand, I do believe that this world exists, though I have no proof that it does. So I guess I have a non-religious faith.

[Ally]

But many, many religious people do not believe they have the monopoly on salvation. I do not believe that being a Christian makes me any more worthy than someone who is Muslim or Humanist or any other type of believer.

Neither do I believe that I follow the 'one true path'. I follow the path I believe in and respect people who choose a different path.

Concerning humbleness. Christians are required to be humble. 2 Chronicles commands "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, pray and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, forgive their sins and heal their land".

I believe that other faiths also require humbleness.

This is the main problem I have with religion. People cherry pick what parts out of it they want to follow and ignore the rest. It makes those of us of a rational bent completely nuts. You state that "christians are required to be humble". Fine, no arguments there. But Christ also said that he is the one true path, the way and the light and that no one comes to god but through him.

So if you can so easily discard the main teaching of what your messiah stated, the entire foundation of your religion even, why would you choose to cling to such a minor tenet of his preaching as humbleness?

You are throwing away the meat to pick at the bones.

[Ally]

Realized my post was a little more "brusque" than I intended an went back to put in some "in my opinions" and "to me"'s but the elapsed time for editing had run out, so I hope you will realize the tone that was meant was not quite so abrupt.