Atheist Teen Gets 49 Year Old Prayer Banner Removed From School: Receives Threats

[Ally]

Hi Limehouse, I appreciate your sentiments but it should also be pointed out that John Newton still delivered that cargo of slaves, and many slave cargoes after his "conversion". He cried out to "god" to save him from a sinking ship, and when the ship didn't go down in the storm, he rationalized it. Not enough to let all that money making human cargo go free though.

And while he later became an abolitionist (coincidentally AFTER he had retired from captaining), he still peddled human beings after he was "touched by god".

[Roy Corduroy]

the ultimate goal of Hitler was to set himself up as the divine head of religion, the uber-messiah himself the prophet of god, which then makes him about as atheist as general christians (with Jesus), catholics (with the pope), Anglicans (the monarch) Mormons (with Joseph Smith), muslims (mohammed), Scientologists, (L. Ron) etc.

In other words folks, if you are religious, then know you will be compared to Hitler on this here website.

Have you got it yet? Or does anybody really want to discuss religion some more. On Casebook

Roy

[Ally]

Actually, no that's not an "in other words". That's what's called a straw man argument and a cheap and poorly done one at that. I appreciate you are trying to take a reasonable (so far) discussion and turn it into stupidity but no one has compared people who are religious to Hitler. Except of course, you.

[Errata]

It isn't about religion, or faith, or Hitler or any of that.

I am a person of faith. I have a religion. And I cannot understand any argument that states that human beings have NOT lost the right to societal prayer. If anyone wants to pray in their house, or on their own time, fine. That's great. But we don't get to do it outside of the various houses of prayer. We blew that. And we continue to blow it. So clearly it is not something we are successful at.

And society is far more forgiving than individuals. I mean, how many times does the average teenager get caught throwing a wild party before his parents no longer leave him home alone? Once? Twice? It's not like this "hey, public prayer isn't such a good thing" is shiny new. It's built into the constitution, 1789 ish. So I'm also not sure why people are surprised that people don't want public prayer.

[mariab]

How can so many intelligent people believe in God? You don't believe in Father Christmas, The Tooth Fairy, or The Easter Bunny do you? Yet the sum total of evidence for the existence of all of these is the same... somebody told you.

My personal opinion as to why otherwise rational people believe in a deity is simple: fear of death and personal ego. They are afraid and they cannot fathom that they do not matter at all in this universe. There has to be something out there that makes them special and a belief in a creator that designed the entire world just so they could inhabit it fills an emotional need and also provides a support system so that they won't just "wink out" of existence.

I'd go with fear of death too, which equals lack of balls in my book. I don't necessarily see ego in existential distress though. Mostly I see fear.

[mariab]

Uh no. You don't get to claim that it's a generic slogan. People who are atheists don't put generic slogans honoring a GOD they don't actually believe in on their insignia. That's just weak thinking to rationalize.
The nazis were not atheists. They were a political party, that contained members of various religions.

Ally, the nazis became atheists gradually. It was their so-called “philosophy“ of a “higher race“ and their crimes against humanity that led them across that path.
As for their recruiting campaign using “God“ in their slogans, can you imagine another way of recruiting 17 years olds as food for the cannons without breaking up with tradition? “Für Gott und Vaterland“ has worked admirably well as a recruiting campaign since the dawn of time.

And the Nazis were not even primarily inspired by Nietzsche philosophy as a whole. Like any group of politicians they selectively picked out the bits that they liked while discarding the parts that didn't fit their goal. They conveniently discarded all of Nietzsche's disdain for anti-semitism and also for nationalism. Because that part doesn't fit their agenda.

Obviously. Which doesn't affect proof that Nietzsche's philosophy is a dangerous one.
And by the by, Wagner was not a true anti-semite. His pamphlet Jugentum in der Musik instrumentalized anti-semitism in a (failed) effort to sabotage his rival, Meyerbeer. True anti-semitism in the musical world occurred for the first time in Paris in the 1870s, predictably after France lost the war to Germany. Vincent d'Indy and other Wagnerian epigones are the ones who gave Wagner his bad reputation with the Jews. Then the nazis adopted Wagner, and there you have it.
To name people with true ties to the nazis, one can quote Richard Strauss (the one from Bavaria, not the Austrian one), Furtwangler, Pfitzner, Karajan.

[Steven Russell]

My personal opinion as to why otherwise rational people believe in a deity is simple: fear of death and personal ego. They are afraid and they cannot fathom that they do not matter at all in this universe. There has to be something out there that makes them special and a belief in a creator that designed the entire world just so they could inhabit it fills an emotional need and also provides a support system so that they won't just "wink out" of existence.

Fear and ego. That's my opinion only.

Completely agree.

[Ally]

Ally, the nazis became atheists gradually. It was their so-called “philosophy“ of a “higher race“ and their crimes against humanity that led them across that path.
As for their recruiting campaign using “God“ in their slogans, can you imagine another way of recruiting 17 years olds as food for the cannons without breaking up with tradition? “Für Gott und Vaterland“ has worked admirably well as a recruiting campaign since the dawn of time.

Of course they did. Every single one. I admire you for your insight and ability to read the soul of every man you've never met. As for ways of recruiting 17 year olds besides a god they can't see or prove, sure, Country and honor. Kind of like we do it here. Women will love you, girls will fall at your feet and you'll look hot in uniform. But it's okay. I know you aren't one to let facts get in the way of your rationalizations.

Obviously. Which doesn't affect proof that Nietzsche's philosophy is a dangerous one.

Uh....

And by the by, Wagner was not a true anti-semite. His pamphlet Jugentum in der Musik instrumentalized anti-semitism in a (failed) effort to sabotage his rival, Meyerbeer. True anti-semitism in the musical world occurred for the first time in Paris in the 1870s, predictably after France lost the war to Germany. Vincent d'Indy and other Wagnerian epigones are the ones who gave Wagner his bad reputation with the Jews. Then the nazis adopted Wagner, and there you have it.

Uh. What the flaming blazes are you talking about? And by the way...what? We weren't talking about Wagner so where does "and by the way" come in? The discussion is not when anti-semitism took hold and when it affected every random German person. Or it wasn't. It's how deeply nazis were nietschean or atheist not the entire history of anti semitism and especially not in the music world, which has never a point of discussion at all and is about as relevant to this topic as when tailors first became anti-semitic.

It's like you jump tracks every time the record plays. Is your next paragraph going to be about the tailor that inspired the Nazi uniform and how his anti-semitism caused him to create anti-jew stitching (even though he wasn't really anti-semitic even though he published pamphlets saying their hairdoes were an affront to Germany)?

I'll leave you to it, I can't keep going down this rabbit hole, from atheism to nazis to nietzsche to wagner ....it's just getting ludicrous.

[Ally]

Completely agree.

I find faith to be interesting. People who believe in what isn't there are fascinating, to me personally. For example, currently on the boards we have someone who looks at a painting of Irises and apparently sees dead women and dogs and doorknockers. He has taken this "what he sees that isn't there", transferred it into a "believe what isn't there" and then transferred it to *reality*. What he sees and believes is in the painting must have occurred in real life, therefore there were dead dogs strewn about the scene of MJK even though there is absolutely no proof whatsoever, and every account proves otherwise. He BELIEVES. And no amount of reason or logic will convince him otherwise.

He is being roundly mocked. But then, people do the exact same thing with religion and it is considered normal and something that you could not ever mock, it being such a deep and personal belief. People make the whole framework of their lives out of dead dogs and doorknockers and that's treated as perfectly reasonable.

Everyone has something they "believe" and when they believe it, rather than being irrational to them it is perfectly reasonable and right. You will never convince them there are no doorknockers or dogs and they will never convince you that there are.

[Magpie]

Ally, the nazis became atheists gradually. It was their so-called “philosophy“ of a “higher race“ and their crimes against humanity that led them across that path.

Sorry, but that's just not true. The plan was to eventually abolish the "degenerate" Christian faith from the Reich and replace it with a Pan-Germanic religion based on a reification of pre-Christian paganism*, but there was no talk of eliminating theism altogether. The Nazis made no secret--and were in fact proud--of basing their rallies, ceremonies and rituals on tried and true religious templates.




*ironically that particular part of the plan lives on, on a minor scale, as the Odinist movement.

[Ally]

There people go confusing the issue with facts. Why don't you just let people believe what they want to believe rather than bringing truth into it! That's just rude!

Rude, I tell you.

[Errata]

Everyone has something they "believe" and when they believe it, rather than being irrational to them it is perfectly reasonable and right. You will never convince them there are no doorknockers or dogs and they will never convince you that there are.

That's not entirely true. I have faith, but I am under no illusion that my belief is rational or logical. I'm familiar with science, evolution, the big bang, and I believe all of it. I have every reason to not believe in a god, but I do anyway. It doesn't make me happy, or comfortable, and I think I would be a much happier person were I an atheist. Just never managed it. And I'm sure a lot of it is early childhood exposure. Some of it is that I'm a little OCD and therefore a little superstitious.

Mostly I just feel it. I feel like there is a god out there, and I'm kinda pissed at him. Just like I feel that certain types of Jazz were created solely to make my head hurt, or I feel like kitchens should be blue. It's a personal thing, and I see no reason why it should be a communal thing, much less a mandatory thing. An opinion on god is like an opinion on color. My relationship with him should affect people about as much as the fact that my favorite color is green. It might be a good thing to remember in certain dealings with me, but otherwise irrelevant to anyone else.

I've tried really hard to not believe. It didn't work. I can't get rid of this notion any more than I can get rid of the notion that all humans are equal and deserving of equal treatment, or that our culture is no better than others, or that 80's music is the best party music on the planet (and I KNOW I'm wrong on that one). But it's an opinion. It's something I feel and others don't. Just like I have never in my life been moved by a painting, but I know plenty of people who have. It doesn't make me better, worse, or blind to logic and reason. Just fond of the color green.

[Errata]

*ironically that particular part of the plan lives on, on a minor scale, as the Odinist movement.

Boy do the Asatru really hate it when someone brings that up

[mariab]

Sorry, but that's just not true. The plan was to eventually abolish the "degenerate" Christian faith from the Reich and replace it with a Pan-Germanic religion based on a reification of pre-Christian paganism*, but there was no talk of eliminating theism altogether. The Nazis made no secret--and were in fact proud--of basing their rallies, ceremonies and rituals on tried and true religious templates.
*ironically that particular part of the plan lives on, on a minor scale, as the Odinist movement.

This is correct, if by paganism you're referring to the Nibelungen mythology. Which is precisely where Wagner fits in, with his interest in restoring a Pan-Germanic ancient mythology and religion, which the nazis embraced in time.

[Steven Russell]

I enjoyed Errata's post where she makes a pretty good case for religious faith being a sort of endearing nuttiness. This may well be true in her case.

However, religion can't be dismissed as eccentricity because it's extremely dangerous! The trouble is, many people of faith see their belief as proof of moral superiority and an endorsement of whatever else they might believe in.