Hillsborough

[RonIpstone]

Thanks!

Will you tolerate a couple more questions?

First, was there a pressing reason to replace the super in charge of an important event like this right before the event, such as the death of the predecessor?

I have read somewhere the alleged reason why the experienced match commander was relieved of his duties at Hillsborough.

The Panel's report says as follows:-

"2.2.8 Yet there was one significant difference regarding policing. Chief Superintendent Brian Mole, Hillsborough's most senior and experienced match commander, was transferred from the local police division in highly controversial circumstances.[1]*He was replaced by Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield 21 days before the Semi-Final. No further information on this sequence of events has been made available to the Panel but, as this chapter shows, it was a significant development. Based on the documents disclosed to the Panel, what follows considers the immediate context, circumstances and aftermath of the disaster."

The footnote [1] is [1]*Phil Scraton,*Hillsborough: The Truth, Edinburgh: Mainstream (2009) pp18-20.


You can read the Panel's report http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/

[Jason]

Thanks!

Will you tolerate a couple more questions?

First, was there a pressing reason to replace the super in charge of an important event like this right before the event, such as the death of the predecessor?

Second, when a jury can't come to a conclusion (we call them "hung" here), does the judge have the power to dismiss the case with prejudice, or whatever your term is? Over here, a hung jury is a type of mistrial, and any time there is a mistrial, the judge will dismiss either with, or without prejudice, meaning that charge cannot, or can be refiled, for a new trial.

I'm just wondering if, having been previously tried, they can be retired because this report would be considered new evidence, or whether the first trial was the only one allowed.

Also, thanks for the part about the reason for the high fences. It explains that it wasn't so much the behavior of those particular fans, but past behavior of fans in general, and the way the stadium was built because of it, that contributed.

have a look on the internet under hillsborough, there is some amazing personal accounts which will have you weep buckets. the Taylor report and yesterdays report are as good a place to start

[RivkahChaya]

Thanks!

Will you tolerate a couple more questions?

First, was there a pressing reason to replace the super in charge of an important event like this right before the event, such as the death of the predecessor?

Second, when a jury can't come to a conclusion (we call them "hung" here), does the judge have the power to dismiss the case with prejudice, or whatever your term is? Over here, a hung jury is a type of mistrial, and any time there is a mistrial, the judge will dismiss either with, or without prejudice, meaning that charge cannot, or can be refiled, for a new trial.

I'm just wondering if, having been previously tried, they can be retired because this report would be considered new evidence, or whether the first trial was the only one allowed.

Also, thanks for the part about the reason for the high fences. It explains that it wasn't so much the behavior of those particular fans, but past behavior of fans in general, and the way the stadium was built because of it, that contributed.

[RonIpstone]

I wrote the following on the 21st anniversary of the disaster.

The disaster occurred at the semi-final tie of the 1989 FA Cup played between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest. The ticket arrangements for this match were pretty much the same as they had been for the previous year's semi-final between the same two clubs at the same ground. Liverpool had been given the west and north, and Forest was allocated the south and east, ends of the ground. Liverpool was the bigger club with the greater following of fans, yet it would receive fewer tickets than Forest. There would be a total of 29,800 Forest fans accommodated in the Spion Kop (east end) and in the south stand, and a total of 24,256 Liverpool fans in the north stand and in the Leppings Lane (west end).



One problem was that the Forest fans had access through 60 turnstiles spread evenly along the south side and east end of the ground, whereas the Liverpool fans had only 23 turnstiles, all of which were situated at the Leppings Lane end. Each Forest turnstile had to admit less than 500 fans, whereas each Liverpool turnstile on average would have to admit more than 1050 fans. Moreover the Liverpool turnstiles were clustered together and it was not easy to distinguish which turnstile had to be used. There were separate turnstiles for the all seater north stand, for the seats in the upper Leppings Lane and for the terracing at the lower level of the Leppings Lane. There were 10,100 standing places on the west terrace, and these fans were served by only 7 turnstiles, an average of 1,450 standing Liverpool fans had to get through each turnstile. This led to confusion and congestion, which culminated in a dangerous situation arising in the half hour before kick-off at 3.00 p.m. There was no orderly queuing and a scrum of fans, all trying to get into the ground, had developed.



The Police stationed outside the ground realised that they were losing control. A request was made that the kick-off be postponed, but the Police inside the ground refused that request. In charge of the overall operation of the Police was Chief Supt. Duckenfield who had only been recently raised to this rank and for whom this was to be his first, and would prove to be his last, big match in charge. With fifteen minutes to kick off the crush outside the ground was becoming intolerable, and at 2.47 p.m. Supt. Marshall radioed his commander inside the ground asking that an exit gate be opened to ease the pressure. The request was repeated three times with the emphasise being that if the exit gates were not opened there was a strong possibility of fatalities outside the ground.



At 2.52 p.m. Chief Supt. Duckenfield gave the order to open exit gate 'C' to ease the pressure of the crowd outside the ground, through this exit gate about 2,000 fans, undoubtedly some without tickets, passed at a fast walk. Immediately in front of this exit gate was the tunnel which led to pens 3 and 4, the central pens immediately behind the goal, above this tunnel was a large sign bearing the legend 'Standing', there was no other indication that the standing terraces could be reached in any other way than through the tunnel. Not surprisingly most of the fans admitted through the exit gate went straight through the tunnel. Pens 3 and 4 were full to bursting before the gate was opened, the addition of another 2,000 or so people would make a fatal crush inevitable.



The match kicked off on time and after 4 minutes Beardsley hit the bar at the far end (east end), this resulted in a sway forward from the back of the Liverpool terracing to the front. It was probably at this moment that the crush barriers which failed gave way.* Many of the fans at the back of the terracing were unaware of the agonies being endured by those at the front. Eventually at 3.06 p.m. the game was stopped by the referee at the request of a police officer who had run onto the pitch. The rescue effort could then begin, yet the rescue was hampered because the fans were penned in by the 8 foot high perimeter fencing which had been erected as an anti-hooligan measure to prevent pitch invasions.



So what had happened? And what had gone wrong? These were the questions uppermost in the mind of Graham Kelly, Chief Executive of the FA, and to obtain answers he made his way to the Police control room to inquire of the match commander Chief Supt. Duckenfield as why this showpiece semi-final had been stopped. Duckenfield said that the game would have to be abandoned as there had been fatalities and that the cause was the forcing of exit gate 'C' by Liverpool fans.



This of course was wrong; the exit gate had been opened on the instruction of Duckenfield himself because he feared that there would be fatalities outside the ground if it had not been opened. But it really did not matter who had opened the gate and why, no blame could attach to Chief Supt Duckenfield if he had given the go ahead to open an exit gate to avoid death on the outside of the ground. His failure was a failure to monitor the build up of the crowd in pens 3 and 4, and a failure to close the access to these pens when they had become full. They had become uncomfortably (probably dangerously) full well before 2.47 p.m. when the request for the exit gate to be opened was made.* Duckenfield should have closed off the tunnel to prevent further access to pens 3 and 4, all he needed to do was to send a serial of Bobbies to block the tunnel and direct the incoming fans to the relatively empty pens at the sides of the terrace. That he did not do that should haunt him for the rest of his days.



Eventually, in 2000 Duckenfield and his deputy, Supt. Murray were prosecuted for manslaughter and dereliction of public duty in a private prosecution brought by the victims' families. Murray was acquitted and the jury could not reach a verdict on Duckenfield. The trial judge directed that no further proceedings could be brought against him.



There was a posting on the message board of some doggerel which described the disaster as "South Yorkshire Mass Murder". Not so, it was an accident caused by the negligent action of the inexperienced match commander who was following procedures which he believed had seen the previous year's semi-final pass off without a hitch. The opening of the exit gate was done with the best of intentions, but through carelessness or inexperience or a combination of the two, he failed to order the blocking off of the tunnel and the pens to which it led. Whether the exit gate was to be opened or not, the central pens 3 and 4 should have been blocked off, this had happened in 1988 in the previous year's semi-final, but was forgotten about in 1989.



The Police, Sheffield Wednesday FC, the F.A. and Sheffield City Council all got a share of the criticism (but mainly the South Yorks Police was blamed) by Lord Justice Taylor in his report. The hooligan element in English football supporters which had made perimeter and radial fences a necessity escaped criticism. As did the hooligan element of some Liverpool supporters, whose presence at matches might have made the Police more concerned about preventing hooliganism than looking after the safety of the majority of Liverpool fans.



Finally, it is usually said that there is a fight for justice for the 96, or this or that is in memory of the 96, and indeed there have been 96 deaths as a result of Hillsborough, the last of whom died in 1993. But one should also remember Andrew Devine who went into a coma on 15 April 1989 as a result of his brain being starved of oxygen in the crush. He is still alive, now aged 43 years, his condition is now that he is confined to a wheelchair, cannot speak, but can eat pureed food and can communicate using special sensory equipment. His story and that of his parents who have cared for him for the past 21 years is a tribute to the human spirit.

[RivkahChaya]

Again, I'm an American, so I'm sure it works differently here, and since you have national healthcare, and probably a much better way of dealing with being injured at work, maybe public employers don't carry malpractice insurance, but here, most public employees get a defense from their employers for malpractice that isn't actually malicious*, because there is specific funding for it, paid for by insurance that is a little like malpractice insurance for doctors. The employer pays the premiums, and a specific amount isn't necessarily passed on to the employee, but the fees are still built in to the fees people pay for healthcare and disability insurance they have through their employers.

Now, maybe there was some actual malice on the part of the police department. I wouldn't know.

*Real examples:

Person dies in custody because he apparently misunderstood the caution to remain silent as meaning that if he informed the police he needed to get medication he wasn't carrying with him, he would lose his right not to answer other questions, and died. Not malice on the part of the police.

Person who is black dies in custody after being beaten by racist white cops. Malice.

[Jason]

an extra little snippet of information, all the times the famillies attempted to get some justice through private prosecutions, they paid with their own money......the authorities used public money to defend themselves......with yesterdays revelations and judgements, this seems rather sickening to me

[Jason]

the whole episode of Hillsborough has stunk from day one, we who were there knew it, the police knew it and the government of the day and since have known it.

The absolute disgrace is that they allowed the smear on the people within that stadium to be allowed to cast its shadow over 23 years. I know a lad who died, he was in my local supporters club and i know many who still have guilt that they couldnt do enough to help those injured and dying.

Yesterdays revelations have shown that they werent at fault, the authorities were and the smear which followed in the press began within moments of the disaster occurring. I am a proud Liverpudlian, i have been to many football matches both before Hillsborough and since and the feeling of aggrievement by the club, fans and victims famillies has grown year on year as each door was slammed in the face of truth and justice we craved. Finally now people outside of the city can see that all along we were right. Its a great moment and one we will savour. Those individuals responsible are now running scared because they know that the wheels of justice are heading in their direction......personally hope they all rot in hell.

[RivkahChaya]

Wow. Someone got a photo of a fireman carrying a dead three-year-old out of the wreck of the building in Oklahoma City, and it won an award. I thought it was ghoulish, myself, until the child's mother made a brief career of appearing on talk shows afterward. Then she had her tubal ligation reversed so she could have another child, and there was a documentary about it.

Can I come live in England?

[Robert]

Obviously the Sun is in bad odour on Merseyside but as I remember it, another thing about the disaster was that there were some ghoulish photos of dead people in the papers at the time - don't know whether that was the Sun or some other tabloid. People's faces were visible.

[RivkahChaya]

Forgive me if I'm still dense, but I guess my confusion between the 1990 report that put most of the blame on the police, and the cover-up, had a lot to do with the blame in 1990 being put on the police who were actually there, as opposed to people much higher up in the chain of command, who made a lot of poor decisions before the fact. If the police who are there are understaffed and under-trained, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

I actually did find a little bit about this in the American news, which is pretty good of us, I think, considering the timing. I mean, the reporter put a weird sort of "In other disaster-closure news..." twist, but still, sometimes I think aliens could land Ottawa, and the US news might miss it.

Sorry for your friend, Psych Nurse. My husband was in Iraq, so I know that's a really strong statement.

[Psych_Nurse]

I remember the Hillsborough disaster very well. I live near Nottingham and a couple of friends were there that day. I believe that the government at the time & the police basically put the blame on the fans for trying to cram in, when in actual fact the police opened the gates which made it possible for too many fans to get into the area. One friend who was there was in the army at the time & has likened that day to his most traumatic experiences in war zones.

I know that many people have welcomed the release of the Hillsborough files, I believe that there was a government cover up at the time, in fact David Cameron said as much on TV earlier.

My heart goes out to anyone who lost someone on that day & I hope that they will get the justice and recognition that they deserve.

Mel

[Jason]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19577033

[RivkahChaya]

OK, I'm an American, an generally not a fan of sports, other than the occasional Mets game, waaaay back when they didn't suck, so I didn't know much about any of this. I had a vague memory of a bunch of people dying at a soccer game in England, because of some crowd control problem reminiscent of the disaster at the Who concert in Ohio.

So, I read the linked article, and then I looked up the stadium on wikipedia, and followed the links to the original sources.

From what I'm reading, it was a preventable tragedy, caused by the police not being where they should have been, and the start of the game not being delayed when there was still a big crowd of advance-sale ticket holders waiting to get in, even though it was usual to delay the start.

But I'm also reading that the government report on the disaster that was released a year later pretty much laid the blame at the feet of the police.

The petition is no longer online.

Could someone explain exactly what the beef is? Is it just that the government offered no apology or recompense even after acknowledging the police's culpability, or is it the reason that the police weren't where they should be? Did somebody know that police patrol was inadequate, before the game began, and just shrugged it off?

Or is it just that families weren't given information? Did the report amount to "We goofed. Nevermind the details. Now shut up"?

Forgive me for being stupid about this. It really did make the news here when it happened, but we haven't kept up on it.

[Jason]

The fans who were there that day have been saying "cover up " since 15/04/1989......we know what we saw......today was momentous and i cried whilst watching the TV as it was announced......a national disgrace perpetrated by SYP, the media, and i believe above that.......23 years is scandalous but its here and now we can see the end in sight......so emotional today and i cant really say anything else.

[DirectorDave]

It's a good thing that the documents will be published in their entirety. I'm not sure it will give us "insight into the cover-up" so much as insight into whether or not there was a cover-up. I'll wait until I see the documents before I pass judgement on that one.

Justice for the 96? I fervently hope so.

Well here we have it.....huge cover-up by the Police.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19543964