Oslo bomb and Utøya shooting

[Phil H]

Let me never hear the phrase "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' ever again.

I can well understand the sentiment that makes you write that. But the fact is that, in certain circumstances, it can be true.

Take the French resistance 1940-45, as but one example.

If one's country was occupied, would one not wish to fight back?

But terrorism should NEVER be a weapon inside a democractic country against the rightful Government. There are other ways of expressing dissent and seeking change - demonstration, persuasion, using the political process. Almost always it becomes a weapon in the hands of minorities who's extreme views will never win over anyone except the already marginalised, the criminal or the mentally unstable.

My hope is that this will show up the idiots in the EDL and the BNP for what they are.

Phil

[Archaic]

Thoughts About Motive, Manifesto, and Advertising

Hi everyone.

I've been thinking about the fact that the killer surrendered instead of shooting himself to avoid capture. Apparently that was part of his detailed plan. He's also pleading "Not Guilty", which is outrageous under the circumstances. I'm thinking he wants a long drawn-out trial instead of a speedy sentence because it will furnish him with ongoing news coverage and a public platform. Like serial killers, many mass murderers bask in the ‘limelight’ of their own notoriety and crave public attention. This one seems to regard himself as some visionary political leader.

This cowardly killer also has a 1,500 page "manifesto" that he wants to publicize. Because he has killed so many people he is front page news all over the world, and many news articles are including bits of his so-called manifesto. In my opinion it would be better not to do so, so as not to reward him by giving his warped views an even greater public platform. It seems to me that in his mind, the bombing and the mass shooting of young people is expected to function as a sort of massive global advertising campaign, catapulting him and his opinions onto a world-wide stage. The thought of that sickens me. I’ve been trying to sort out my own feelings on this issue, so I decided to post them and see if others feel the same way, or if they regard the issue quite differently.

Although I wish to be a well-informed person and realize it’s important for society to understand the roots of terrorism, I feel like I don't want to read or hear this loathsome killer's "manifesto", because I don't want to give him what he wants. He launched terrorist-style attacks against defenseless people in the belief that it would establish his public "credentials" as a socio-political force to be reckoned with. Although he did kill many people, I can't help seeing it as a more ambitious version of the typical grandiose narcissistic killer who acts out violently and manipulates others in order to feel 'powerful' and 'important'. Why reward such a contemptible creature?

He ruthlessly slaughtered scores of young people, stealing their futures and devastating their families. He wounded and maimed approximately 100 more. He deeply traumatized each of the survivors, their entire nation, and indeed the whole world. The killer clearly wanted to shock us into taking him seriously enough to hang upon his every word, as if we'll be reduced to a state of helpless fascination and even admiration by the modern ubermensch. He told his lawyer the killings were “horrible” but “necessary”. Why “necessary”? Because their shocking scale and the horrific targeting of children instantly put the killer and his opinions center-stage all over the world. He justified the slaughter as “necessary” because it was an undeniably effective way of attracting global media attention. Think about it- if he had “only” carried out the bombing and not shot all those kids, how many of us who live outside of Norway would have followed this story to such an extent?

The mass killings were a vehicle intended to permit his own hate-filled opinions to infiltrate our minds and influence us, and I for one refuse to let him do that. He has affected me too much already. I’ve decided I will not read his "manifesto". I feel like I don't even want to read the small excerpts from it that are sprinkled in the news articles. I started to read one this morning, and I suddenly stopped and thought, “He murdered this child… and this child… and this child… and this child… all so he could manipulate me into reading his sick rants." I won’t do it. It dishonors the victims and turns their deaths into nothing but a slick advertising campaign for some ruthless narcissist’s new brand of hatred. I've decided that I'll keep my focus on the victims.

That’s my opinion. I’m interested to hear how the rest of you feel.

Best regards,
Archaic

[The Good Michael]

Archaic,

I don't know what your religious beliefs are, but if anyone believes in God and that God takes some sort of active role in the life of his creations; if God has performed or given others the power to perform miracles; if God did indeed give his chosen people the Ark of the Covenant with which to defeat their enemies, and then took it away allowing his people to be conquered and enslaved; if the Virgin Mary appeared at Fatima and gave three messages to the pope, one of which was disturbing; if Allah did dictate that Mohammed could indeed have sex with a 9 year old girl and have 11 (13?) wives because he was special; if God could destroy the world with a flood and save just a few who were also special; if God could create plagues and cast them down upon the enemies of the Jews and if God could order Abraham to kill his son; and if God could sacrifice his own son through the hell of dying on a cross (though I don't think it would be all that bad); If God has this kind of interest an interaction with humanity, it must be possible that he sanctioned the killings by this Norwegian man. Why? Because it was God's will and who are we to question or understand God's intent?

Mike

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

The psychological interpretations of Anders Behrling Breivik's action's are being analyzed. Every thought, every answer, every possibility, every psuedo eventuality is being pondered.... by everyone in their own way. But there is another side to this that overwhelms every action, every deed, every tiny detail of the carnage this man has presented his nation. Forgive me if I try to explain something to you all.

For standing in the middle of all of this, are the people.. we, the population, the nearest ones that are affected by this horrible, unthinkable piece of world history. Our every thought, from waking to sleep, and even in between, is reflected the face of the person next to us on the bus, the fruit seller at the local town square market..the children....everybody knows...

Here in Norway, and it is almost impossible to describe fully, is a sense that every single one of us are part of this. Now normally, when one hears a statement like that, one becomes a little annoyed, perhaps enough to say.. "Everyone?.. that's impossible, that's an over exaggeration, surely?"

Well, in this instance, I can assure you all, it genuinely is not. It is true.

Norway, population-wise, is a small country. 4.8, perhaps 4.9 million citizens, spread over a very wide area, from well within the Arctic circle at Honningsvåg at the very top, East to Vadsø that near borders Russia and along the North Eastern border with Finland to Kautokeino and across to the larger city of Tromsø, and the long border with Sweden, all the way down through Trondheim, then 500kms on to Oslo.. not forgetting the West Coast Cities of Ålesund, Bergen and Stavanger, down, along the coast towards the southern tip, Kristiansand, and up again, following the Oslo fjord to the capital itself, and then along the coast all the way down to Fredrikstad, on the Eastern side of the Oslo fjord, where Norway eventually stops and meets Sweden again.

At 6 o'clock in the evening yesterday- Monday, (it is 5.am Tuesday here as a I write), in every city, every town, every smaller town, every village, every small village.... everybody walked. A torch parade, many bearing roses, flowers, candles.. teddy bears, crayon drawings, hand-held flags and much much more besides, items expressing love held by old and young alike. Everyone walked, in unity.

In my little town, with a population of around 45,000, again, spread over a wide area (just below the No. 3 on the map below), we all gathered in the town square area. I have no idea who I stood next to as I walked slowly along, but I listened, I watched and I felt my near neighbours around me. We walked through the town, down to the quayside area, and back up through the town centre, in a wide circle, in a long, mostly silent parade.

We arrived back at the town square again, to lay our thoughts, feelings and emotions down along with everyone else's, and to stand for a minute or two and reflect, in front of the sea, the ever-growing sea, of bouquets, single stems and dearly loved children's cuddly toys and drawings, the messages of love and hope written on scrappy pieces of paper, carefully slipped into a clear polythene bag for all to read.... nobody pushed in, nobody was in a hurry, nobody wanted to jump the queue, all waited patiently and let the persons ahead of us take their time in front of the masses of candles, gifts and sentiments laid down.

It was the strangest of feelings. The rain dripped on my hair as we walked. Most people didn't have an umbrella with them. I gave mine to an old lady and her husband next to me. No word was spoken. I gave a smile. No word was needed in giving nor receiving. She smiled back.. a small, tiny smile, without happiness, but with goodness in abundance. I didn't feel special doing it.. it just seemed right. Along the way, the strangest realisation hit me. There were children from babies in prams and slightly older ones in push-buggies, to 4 and 5 year olds walking, some carried on Dad's backs, some on Mum's hip... and not once.. not once in the 2 hours I was there, did I hear a baby cry. Not once did I hear a child complain in boredom, not once did I hear "can we go home now, I'm freezing"...

Just ahead of me, a little girl of 5 or 6 tripped over. The old lady next to me helped pick her up, without a word, brushed her hands that had hit the wet ground... looked at her. and gave her a piece of a chocolate bar from her pocket. No words, no tears, just a smile. The little girl smiled, said "takk" (thank you), and walked on again. It didn't matter that it had caused the procession behind us to stop.. nobody tried to walk on, or around the blockage in front of them...they just waited, without a sound, without a shuffle of feet.. just waited in patience for the walk to continue again.

When we had laid down our offering in thoughts of the victims and their families and loved ones, we moved away a little, still standing in the square, in one's and two's and three's and fours. little groups becoming larger groups. People shaking hands.. the same smile.. old and young.. people hugging, we all had the same feeling, of knowing.. exactly what it was that had happened to us. We stood together.

The old lady tapped me on the shoulder and held out the rolled up umbrella.
It was still raining. I just smiled, gave her a hug, shook the old man's hand next to her, and slowly walked on home, leaving her with the umbrella.

It was the look in the old man's eyes that will live with me forever. It told me that I "understood" something. Something he had not seen since World War Two perhaps. The feeling that we were not individuals wanting our little piece of the cake in life.. but for this moment in time, we were, indeed, one. Asking for nothing, yet giving, just because...we knew.

That feeling, echoed through a complete society, a complete nation, and beyond... to neighbouring nations and far away countries around the world, is far, far, far stronger.... than any message this man Anders Behrling Breivik could hope to convey to the world from the variances inside his head. The anger that has manifested inside his complex mind against political and religious groupings, that carries destruction, carnage and total massacre of innocent young lives, is nothing... nothing at all, compared with the power stung back in silence, from the citizens of this little country... that whatever our political views, whatever our creed, whatever out backgrounds, whatever our age, whatever our religious views... we all stand together, at this moment in time, at this moment in history, as one.

That moment in all likely-hood will pass on again. But I for one, can honestly speak for many.. that the moment will never be forgotten. For me it was the smile from the old lady, and the look in the old man's eyes, that told me that humanity has an inner life that walks above the worst of troubles. It very rarely shows itself in a lifetime, if at all..but when it does...the calm, the care, the love...it outweighs the hate of a complicated megalomaniac hell bent on destruction. If you took a pin, and placed it on the map, in Oslo, and lifted the country from the map and swiveled it on that axis.. then the top of Norway would reach down to Rome in Italy. I have the feeling that Norway, now, reaches all over the world.

Norway. A little country that I live in.

It makes me smile, quietly.


kindly

Phil

[Sister Hyde]

Archaic,

To be honest I understand your view on this dude's "manifesto", but I think you won't be the only one, I think even the morrons who will claim support to him won't get through it, 1518 pages of sour complaining and nagging, it's enough to make Flaubert drowsy.

[prowling cat]

Archaic,
you have echoed my feelings perfectly. I think exactly the same way.
I do hope he can be tried as having committed high treason against his country, and be punished for the horror he has spread, but I doubt that this ... person, I suppose, will ever understand what he has done, it's, well, words fail me.

[Phil Carter]

Archaic,
you have echoed my feelings perfectly. I think exactly the same way.
I do hope he can be tried as having committed high treason against his country, and be punished for the horror he has spread, but I doubt that this ... person, I suppose, will ever understand what he has done, it's, well, words fail me.

Hello prowling cat,

Whilst I totally understand the disgust of this horrendous man and his deeds, it must be said that the man himself, Anders Breivik, in two lengthy statements to the police, the last one lasting ten hours I understand, is actually totally aware of what he has done, and is in total understanding of his deeds, and the ramifications of such.

Sadly, his apparent complete and utter belief in his ideology outweighs his understanding of the carnage he created. He has stated, clearly, through his lawyer and to the police, and repeatedly, that although what he did he found "terrible", it "must be done".

The near 1600 page manifesto written by Breivik is indeed akin to "Mein Kampf", a dotty little offering from another right winger. The need to exert his thoughts through absolute power of action, is reflected in this manifesto. Again, sadly, the megalomaniac inside has taken over all form of rational thinking that most of us know of as natural thought.

Heydrich, Himmler and Hitler were well aware of the carnage they created with their SS and Gestapo units. The suppression of all forms of politics that did not tow the party line, and any form of diversity from the "quality" of the Germanic race became more and more emphasised, through the attempted wiping out of all forms of "different" races and creeds.

Recently, the son of the "Angel of Death", (Mengele), put up his father's notebooks for auction. (On another thread). One of the comments from this despicable man, is apparently along the lines that racial inter-mixing has ruined Europe and it's people's and cultures.

This links to the Breivik manifesto are clear. The intention to rid a political system of a known party, the intention to create a singular society, and the complete ban on any religious variation away from Christianity.

Breivik himself claims that in 100 years from now, people will look upon him as a hero of sorts. Echos from the past regimes of many.

Now, as regards treason, of course the name Quisling has entered the English language since WW2 because of the actions of Vidkun Quisling. Quisling was hanged for his treason. The death penalty in Norway was abolished a long while ago. The only thing that can happen to Breivik, if found guilty, can be that he will spend the rest of hi life behind bars. Already the authorities are looking into more charges to supplement those he is already charged with. The Norwegian Justice system, provides for additional 5 year sentences to be added on to the maximum sentence of 21 years.
They do this if in the opinion of the judges, the person is deemed to be either a danger to himself, or to others.

I do not think that anybody will argue against the latter. He himself has said he expects to live the rest of his life in prison. This may be the one thing the man has got totally correct, in his long assessment of his own actions.

The most amazing thing, which has enlightened this awful situation, is the reaction of the people of Norway themselves. They refuse to be outweighed in their thoughts by the word revenge.

kindly

Phil

[Sister Hyde]

,The most amazing thing, which has enlightened this awful situation, is the reaction of the people of Norway themselves. They refuse to be outweighed in their thoughts by the word revenge.

kindly

Phil

Phil,

I must say it's typical from them. and it's been typical for over 60 years, they have never held any grudges, even when being completely forgotten by the whole world after THEY saved our asses in WWII, people forget, probably never even thought about it, but they don't ask crap for it, and the americans and the resistance would have been bloody useless without their operation Telemark.

Cam

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi all

I was disgusted yesterday to learn that the suspect Breivik, unable to purchase large amounts of ammunition in Norway, purchased it by mail order from the United States.

Chris

[Sister Hyde]

Hi all

I was disgusted yesterday to learn that the suspect Breivik, unable to purchase large amounts of ammunition in Norway, purchased it by mail order from the United States.

Chris

unfortunately he won't be the first. that's the ultimate flaw of the US I guess, selling weapons like we sell a pint of beer.. "are you 21?? ok there you are!". but still it's very strange. even when mail ordering ain't they supposed to check their age/nationality and national laws on it?

[The Good Michael]

It's illegal for me in the US to send a six-pack of beer to someone vial postal service, but I've done ot several times. If someone wants something they can get it and no questions asked. That's how the whole sleazy world works.

Mike

[Sister Hyde]

yeah but in Norway it wouldn't require postal service and the risk to get busted to get hold of a gun... Russia is just north up. Jesus I wonder how much a 6 pack costs to send, depending on what kind of beer it can become very expansive.

[The Good Michael]

I think the last six-pack cost me $60 to send to Korea, but I had a few other things in the box for protection. As long as I claimed it was clothing and books and it was under 100 dollars, including shipping, they don;t care about it.

Mike

[Sister Hyde]

I think the last six-pack cost me $60 to send to Korea, but I had a few other things in the box for protection. As long as I claimed it was clothing and books and it was under 100 dollars, including shipping, they don;t care about it.

Mike

whaaa that's the most expansive pack of beer I've ever seen! "package content: 2 dictionnaries"

[Phil Carter]

Hello Sister,all

My apologies, re-reading the previous posting I wrote that Vidkun Quisling was hanged. This is wrong. He was, in actual fact executed by firing squad- something that I knew.. but somehow managed to write "hanged". I must have been thinking of something else as I typed.

kindly

Phil