Mengele stuff up for auction.

[Chris]

Phil H

You see, my rather antique dictionary defines "argument" as:
"Proof, reason, demonstration; process of reasoning; debate, discussion; an abstract or summary of a book; the subject of a discourse."

It seems an odd choice of word to describe anti-semitism.

[Phil H]

Chris,

Perhaps I was using the term rather loosely - but I hope my intent and meaning is now clear.

Sorry if I confused you.

Phil

[Sister Hyde]

Hi Phil,

Of course not. I'm talking about people like my (now deceased) uncle Georg who was a member of the SS, convinced Nazi and avid collector of documents from '33-'45. He and his comrades openly admitted that they were picking up/buying that stuff for the sole purpose of "taking it out of neo-democratic hands".

collecting doesn't mean anything, I do too collect original items from WWII (medals, books, weapons, gasmasks, boots and so on), and I'm half jewish ( some could say I'm taking them out of neo NS hands, especially for that original signed Mein kampf, which is probably the most boring book in the world ) anyway, I think there is a big difference between little items like unis or medals and so on, and memoirs or manuscripts. Museums, associations, don't give a damn about finding a collection of SS medals or boots, these there are plenty and they don't bring anything new, but I think items such as the ones do carry some interest (although the texts it contains I think are not unknown to historians)

[Heinrich]

Chris,

Perhaps I was using the term rather loosely - but I hope my intent and meaning is now clear.

Sorry if I confused you.

Phil

The term antisemitism tends to be used loosely, Phil, so it is understandable that clarification is sometimes needed.
Nowadays, antisemitism has come to mean criticism of the Israeli government.
Before that it meant hostility to Jews.
Since Semites are any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs, strictly speaking antisemitism is a prejudice against these people or their descendants.
In the Victorian era, there was a significant population of European Jews in London's East End and sentiment against them was common.

[Phil H]

In a mild way - if such a prejudice can ever be "mild" - anti-semitism permeated every level and part of Uk society before the war. My grandmother was born around 1884 and lived to be 95. I well recall her - if say a variety artist came on TV, saying something like "jewboy"! It was not meant to be a nasty comment (knowing my grandmother),or to belittle or harmful, it was just a comment. But it was there and it must have had implications for the way she saw the world.

I think it was this sort of thing that Hitler built on (although he had precursors aplenty).

There was also the dogma of the Catholic Church (extant I think until quite recently) that the Jews bore the guilt for Christ's death, and legends such as the "Wandering Jew" that Goebells made into a film.

It is also worth taking into account that although many Jews in the C19th (and even up to the war) were westernised, the Polish and Russian Jews LOOKED quite different in terms of the way they kept their hair and beards, their headgear and attire. This must have markedly increased the impression that thy were outsiders or Other which could be used to fuel prejudice.

As Ripperologists are all too well aware, of course, the forged "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" (having their origin in anti-Napoleon III propaganda/satire) have been used as a weapon against the Jews for more than a century and still are by the ignorant.

Phil

[bolo]

Hi Sister Hyde,

anyway, I think there is a big difference between little items like unis or medals and so on, and memoirs or manuscripts.

agreed, that's why I wrote in my reply to Phil:

"Let me add that I'm talking about historical documents, not memorabilia.".

A museum or researcher probably couldn't care less about SS daggers, Totenkopf caps or Blut und Ehre belt buckles or stuff like that.

Regards,

Boris

[Chris]

Sorry if I confused you.

You didn't confuse me at all.

[Sister Hyde]

Hi Sister Hyde,
A museum or researcher probably couldn't care less about SS daggers, Totenkopf caps or Blut und Ehre belt buckles or stuff like that.

Regards,

Boris

the thing is. do these Mengele papers bring anything new to the worlds knowledge of what happened or what they discovered. And I doubt it does.

[Phil H]

the thing is. do these Mengele papers bring anything new to the worlds knowledge of what happened or what they discovered. And I doubt it does.

That is for none of us to say.

How many times in studying the Ripper case have we had cause to say - why did someone destroy that piece of paper or that shred of evidence? If may have seemed insignificant to them, but would have beebn valuable to us - maybe for what it DID NOT say.

Papers relating to key players in important events (and the pursuit of Mengele over so long make him that, whatever his apparent rank) should never be destroyed. They cannot be replaced.

Like the death sentence, censorship of the historical record is uncivilised, barbaric and reflects ignorance and barbarism.

Phil

[bolo]

the thing is. do these Mengele papers bring anything new to the worlds knowledge of what happened or what they discovered. And I doubt it does.

Even if chances are slim that we will discover something of earth-shattering magnitude in Mengele's papers, we will never know until we've taken a look at them before they get added to a private collection, never to be seen again.

[Sister Hyde]

That is for none of us to say.

How many times in studying the Ripper case have we had cause to say - why did someone destroy that piece of paper or that shred of evidence? If may have seemed insignificant to them, but would have beebn valuable to us - maybe for what it DID NOT say.

Papers relating to key players in important events (and the pursuit of Mengele over so long make him that, whatever his apparent rank) should never be destroyed. They cannot be replaced.

Like the death sentence, censorship of the historical record is uncivilised, barbaric and reflects ignorance and barbarism.

Phil

Yes Phil of course, but in this case the documents are not being destroyed. and I assume (maybe very naive), that these documents can't have been sold without being studied first. I hardly see anyone serious selling such things without having had the documents first cleaned, read, references, sorted, AND microfilmed for all archive-related organisation.... can it?? I mean, I don't think people give as little importance to WWII documents as they would for the Ripper case.

[Sister Hyde]

Even if chances are slim that we will discover something of earth-shattering magnitude in Mengele's papers, we will never know until we've taken a look at them before they get added to a private collection, never to be seen again.

I'm sure there are SOME laws in the U.S. that could impose the micro-filming of these documents before it getting into some private's library, I think americans feel just as implicated in this part of history as we do in Europe. If it wasn't done then, it's incredibly stupid

[Errata]

So just yesterday I was at a doctor's appointment, and someone admired the ring of the woman sitting next to me. And she held it out and said "Isn't it beautiful? My grandfather got it from Dachau." So I asked her how that came to be, and she said her Grandfather was visiting his friend at work, and saw a pile of jewelry and took the ring. So I asked her if she had ever tried to find the original owner of the ring, and the woman who had originally admired it said "well they're all dead. and anyway, finders keepers." And the two laughed and laughed.

So I know that the appropriate thing to do with these documents is to preserve them for scholars, but can you understand why I am bone tired of collectors and just wish that the whole lot would spontaneously burst into flame?

And by the way, antisemitism has NEVER meant disagreement with the Israeli government or with Israel as a nation. That's antizionism.

[Sister Hyde]

So just yesterday I was at a doctor's appointment, and someone admired the ring of the woman sitting next to me. And she held it out and said "Isn't it beautiful? My grandfather got it from Dachau." So I asked her how that came to be, and she said her Grandfather was visiting his friend at work, and saw a pile of jewelry and took the ring. So I asked her if she had ever tried to find the original owner of the ring, and the woman who had originally admired it said "well they're all dead. and anyway, finders keepers." And the two laughed and laughed.

So I know that the appropriate thing to do with these documents is to preserve them for scholars, but can you understand why I am bone tired of collectors and just wish that the whole lot would spontaneously burst into flame?

And by the way, antisemitism has NEVER meant disagreement with the Israeli government or with Israel as a nation. That's antizionism.

I think as an american you must know a whole bunch about your laws and maybe you can answer that question mark of mine about having laws imposing the micro-filming of the diaries without needing the collector to agree on it. here I know from my previous job at the Shoah dep. by the national archives, that it would be done under duress.

[jason_c]

As Ripperologists are all too well aware, of course, the forged "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" (having their origin in anti-Napoleon III propaganda/satire) have been used as a weapon against the Jews for more than a century and still are by the ignorant.

Phil

Arent they Russian in origin?