Religion is nuts

[Errata]

I had a teacher once tell us how Star Wars can be construed as an indictment against democracy and a recommendation for theocracy.

At this point I'm pretty sure that any book or movie can be twisted to say what anyone wants it say. I used to trot out a biblical verse supporting abortion just to piss people off. I imagine that people believe what they want to believe and something as circuitous as the bible can easily support whatever that is.

[ChrisGeorge]

Let me say from the off I don't subscribe to any religion or believe in any supreme deity, thats my choice, and if others choose to believe in yheir own form of God thats their choice.

Where I have a problem is not that religion is nuts but that it can turn people into nuts.Too many people see their idea of religion as the only correct way and try to impose those beliefs on others whether by constant vilification of those who dont agree with their beliefs or in extreme cases by direct actions.

History has shown that extreme beliefs lead to extreme actions whether the Inquisition,the witch trials or the fundamentalist terrorism of today. Even today I believe groups of obnoxious low lifes attempt to disrupt funerals of US servicemen killed in action out of some twisted quasi religious ideology.
So my problem is not with religion,or even the vast majority of believers but the strange hold religion can have over some individuals.

Hi brummie, Errata, et al.

I know from my study of Russian history that Orthodox priests actually had debates about how many angels were on the head of a pin. So religion can lead to both bizarre notions and actions.

My family had a family friend who was a religious Jewish gentleman who was realistic enough to point out that many of the wars in the world have been caused by religion, which I also believe to be true. Although I can see that religion can be a solace and support for many people, it might be argued that religion, particularly the organized variety, does a lot of harm in the world.

brummie, the sect that you are talking about that demonstrates at the funerals of U.S. servicemen killed in action is the Westboro Baptist Church, and they are doing so because of the U.S. government's policies on allowing gays to serve in the armed services.

Best regards

Chris

[Robert]

There will always be rows over religion because religion touches on questions of life and death, or afterlife and afterdeath, plus morality, man's place in the universe etc. People don't kill each other over what's going on inside a helium atom or whether the universe is expanding or contracting.

[Errata]

There will always be rows over religion because religion touches on questions of life and death, or afterlife and afterdeath, plus morality, man's place in the universe etc. People don't kill each other over what's going on inside a helium atom or whether the universe is expanding or contracting.

Well, I think some people have died over whats going on in an atom, but I'm pretty sure those were accidents.

Although scientists do occasionally kill each other over science. But certainly rival science gangs don't hunt each other in the streets (which would be awesome). But they do go way over the top in other ways. The Dinosaur Wars were just so ludicrous it was tragic.

I was going to say the problem lies in ungoverned passions, but even that isn't right. And it isn't even about allowing others to make mistakes. Really it's about the rare skill of being able know what battles to fight and what battles to pass. It doesn't matter how many times I end up opposite a pro-life person, I never blame them for the battle. If you think people are being harmed, you SHOULD defend them. That's a worthy fight. If you think someone's soul is being harmed, that's probably a conversation and not a battle. And if you think that a law that doesn't actually exist (but should) is being broken, it's probably best to just keep your mouth shut and silently feel morally superior.

My parents taught me that the three things you never discuss in polite company (sex politics and religion) are also the three areas where no means no. You cannot force any of those three on another person without harming them. You ask, they say no, end of discussion.

[Robert]

Errata, what was that story in the Old Testament - the one where the Jewish prophet pitted his god against the Philistine god, and the Jewish god came out on top with a miracle? I can't remember the details now. Unfortunately this kind of experiment doesn't normally work. If it did, there would be less argument about religion.

[cappuccina]

The story of Samson, perhaps?

[Robert]

I think it was in Elijah's time - Yahweh v Baal, but there might be another one I'm thinking of. There were a lot of gods knocking around in those days.

[Errata]

I think it was in Elijah's time - Yahweh v Baal, but there might be another one I'm thinking of. There were a lot of gods knocking around in those days.

Actually, there were three. Although only one is in the actual 5 books.

The first was Abraham vs. Molech (the baby-eater, so not exactly a good guy) in a contest, and G-d dropped a pyramid or something on all the priests of Molech, thus defeating him.

Although oddly enough a cult of Molech appeared about 100 miles away about 5 years ago. Creepy guys. I had to help evaluate them for a trial.

And then later there was a war in the heavens type thing where Jehovah warred with Ba'al and Asherah, and drove them from the heavens. And I can't for the life of me remember when that was. It was a friend of mine's haftorah for her Bat Mitzvah. If I recall correctly everyone got neon yellow t-shirts that said " Sex, drugs and rock and roll - The Ba'al and Asherah farewell tour, 1992."

The lack of taste amongst my hebrew school class was disturbing. Amusing, but disturbing.

[Limehouse]

Let me say from the off I don't subscribe to any religion or believe in any supreme deity, thats my choice, and if others choose to believe in yheir own form of God thats their choice.

Where I have a problem is not that religion is nuts but that it can turn people into nuts.Too many people see their idea of religion as the only correct way and try to impose those beliefs on others whether by constant vilification of those who dont agree with their beliefs or in extreme cases by direct actions.

History has shown that extreme beliefs lead to extreme actions whether the Inquisition,the witch trials or the fundamentalist terrorism of today. Even today I believe groups of obnoxious low lifes attempt to disrupt funerals of US servicemen killed in action out of some twisted quasi religious ideology.
So my problem is not with religion,or even the vast majority of believers but the strange hold religion can have over some individuals.

Hi Brummie. Excellent points - and that is why I think it's important to distinguish between personal faith and organised religion. The people who lobby US airmans' funerals are the Phelps family and their followers and they are hard-line Old Testament Souther Baptists who are most certainly extreme in their view and actions. No wonder people are put off exploring religion and what it can offer wioth those people as an example.

I was raised as a Baptist in the Uk and the difference between my church and that run by the Phelps could not be more different. I was raised to believe in a gentle and loving and forgiving God and I was taught that God requires us to love people unconditionally. That is a very hard thing to do most of the time but it is a personal quest - not one I would impose on everyone else.

I also have enormous respect for many other religions and for people who have no religious faith. I suppose most people these days do not believe in God or any version of God or gods but they still extend the hand of friendship and live decent lives and are happy with themselves and their lives and that's all that matters.

[Robert]

Hi Limehouse

A lot of organized religion is personal experience that's been written down - purported messages from a god, received by means of outer and inner voices, outer and inner visions, witnesses to miracles and so on. Non-believers put these down to illusions, hallucinations etc. Believers take them to be records of religious experience - or more likely, take the bits they like to be records of religious experience, and dismiss what they don't like as illusions, lies etc.

[Limehouse]

Hi Limehouse

A lot of organized religion is personal experience that's been written down - purported messages from a god, received by means of outer and inner voices, outer and inner visions, witnesses to miracles and so on. Non-believers put these down to illusions, hallucinations etc. Believers take them to be records of religious experience - or more likely, take the bits they like to be records of religious experience, and dismiss what they don't like as illusions, lies etc.

Hi Robert - yes - you are probably right. However - I do not dismiss other people's experiences as invalid. I believe what I believe and leave others to do the same.

[Errata]

Hi Brummie. Excellent points - and that is why I think it's important to distinguish between personal faith and organised religion. The people who lobby US airmans' funerals are the Phelps family and their followers and they are hard-line Old Testament Souther Baptists who are most certainly extreme in their view and actions. No wonder people are put off exploring religion and what it can offer wioth those people as an example.

Just because when it comes to cults, I think it's important:

Westboro is not Southern Baptist. They are Primitive Baptist. The rest of the Primitive Baptist community reject them utterly. Much as the rest of Seventh Day Adventists rejected David Koresh and his little band.

And cults are different from religions. At least in the US they are.

[Errata]

Hi Limehouse

A lot of organized religion is personal experience that's been written down - purported messages from a god, received by means of outer and inner voices, outer and inner visions, witnesses to miracles and so on. Non-believers put these down to illusions, hallucinations etc. Believers take them to be records of religious experience - or more likely, take the bits they like to be records of religious experience, and dismiss what they don't like as illusions, lies etc.

The question I have always wanted to ask someone (and frankly I don't have the guts) is why on earth they think the Bible was written by god. And not to sound proprietary or anything, but if Jews started this whole thing, and WE don't think it was written by G-d, why do they think it was? I don't understand that.

[johns]

Johns - I completely agree with you that the procedure is much more difficult for older boys and men...I was referring to circumcising infants...

Aye that's fine. I just wanted to add my 2 cents on the matter for folks who may not realise that the procedure is "worse" the older you get so to speak.

[johns]

Do you wish that it had been done when you were an infant?

No... I think that the operation shouldn't be done unless it's necessary, and there's no way (that I'm aware of) to foresee such things.

Having said all this, and I'm only speaking from my own personal experience obviously, I prefer to NOT have my "hat". Much better without it.