No limits to immigration

[babybird67]

http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/briefingPaper/document/49

It's only very recently, historically, that there has been more immigration to this country than emigration from it.

[Hatchett]

HI,

Well said Babybird. A voice of sanity at last.

Best wishes.

[Bob Hinton]

Right, so it's a 'fact' that all immigrants are criminals and all emigrants model citizens? Right.

The discussion is about immigration, not about criminal behaviour of SOME immigrants. There is a difference.

Where have I said that? What I'm pointing out is that there is a vast difference between the thousands of people who come to this country to abuse the hospitality and commit criminal acts and those people who want to retire peacefully in another country.

We are in the situation in this country where foreign criminals cannot be deported because it might deny them their 'Human Rights'. Recently we had the case where a convicted terrorist was allowed to stay because he might be in danger in his home country. Of course he will be in danger - he goes around murdering his fellow countrymen.

Mustaf Jama was an illegal immigrant who committed acts of rape, attempted murder and the murder of a policewoman. He fled back to Somalia, a country he was previously not deported to because he said he would be in danger! The only people who were in danger were the people he raped, murdered and attempted to murder in this country. The man behind the robbery where he murdered PC Sharon Beshenivsky, fled back to Pakistan.

We have recently had the case of the ‘Carmarthen Schoolboy’ who fled persecution in his homeland of Pakistan to come here. He was given a foster home, money, education and everything he wanted. When he was threatened with deportation a petition was got up with over 4,000 signatures, including MP’s teachers etc. The local TV station then did a bit of digging. His father was in London and doing very nicely thank you. His family in Pakistan were middle class and wealthy. He was never in any danger from any source, yet he came here and lied, stole, forged documents and behaved in a totally unacceptable manner. Even when all this came to light you still had people dashing around saying he should stay – including the headmaster!

Is it any wonder people just don’t want to accept any more immigrants into this country?

We need to weed out these immigrants who come here just to cause mayhem and send them packing – not only to protect us but also to protect their fellow countrymen who come here to live the life. One of our best friends is a Polish family who are as nice a family as you could possibly wish to meet.

However talking to the local police recently I was told that there is a fast growing hard core of thugs and criminals who have come here from Europe who are running riot. If they try to arrest them they start shouting about human rights and they are told to back off.

This situation needs sorting out otherwise you are going to get a rise in extremists who will simply lump them altogether – and no-body wants that.

[The Good Michael]

Bob points out a major truth. Often the first people of any given group coming to the UK or America are the well-connected criminals who have access to money and government assistance to get them out of their countries. Maybe they are the minority, but the silent majority is never noticed. Major crackdowns on all immigration will prevent some of the bad guys (and gals) from getting in, it is hoped.

Mike

[babybird67]

Where have I said that? What I'm pointing out is that there is a vast difference between the thousands of people who come to this country to abuse the hospitality and commit criminal acts and those people who want to retire peacefully in another country.

No Bob you're doing what a lot of anti-immigration arguers do and conflating the issue of immigration with the issue of crime. The two do not go hand in hand. The vast majority of immigrants to this country do not come here to form criminal gangs or commit crimes of any sort. Just as the vast majority of emigrants do not emigrate for the same reason. It would lead to a more sensible discussion about the issue of immigration to keep the two issues completely separate. Nobody in favour of immigration is in favour of those immigrants commiting crimes.

my respectful regards

Jen

[Limehouse]

People here in the UK would be up in arms if it was suggested they couldn't exercise their right to emigrate to Spain to retire when they wanted to etc. If people want the freedom to emigrate, then by definition they are 'immigrants' to another country and would not want that curtailed.

Speaking about free movement of people in theory is all very well, but most people don't just up and move at a moment's notice. They have roots, families, connections, where they live and grow up, so a nightmare scenario of flux and chaos would be unlikely to happen.

Personally, i believe we are all human beings, and a lot of problems come from the erection and defence of geographical boundaries. Perhaps if we all started to think in the mindset that the world belongs to everyone it would cause fewer conflicts around the world and everyone could live in peace.

Jen

I agree with every word.

[Limehouse]

No Bob you're doing what a lot of anti-immigration arguers do and conflating the issue of immigration with the issue of crime. The two do not go hand in hand. The vast majority of immigrants to this country do not come here to form criminal gangs or commit crimes of any sort. Just as the vast majority of emigrants do not emigrate for the same reason. It would lead to a more sensible discussion about the issue of immigration to keep the two issues completely separate. Nobody in favour of immigration is in favour of those immigrants commiting crimes.

my respectful regards

Jen

And once again - I agree totally. Well done.

[babybird67]

thank you Julie x

[Bob Hinton]

Really?

No Bob you're doing what a lot of anti-immigration arguers do and conflating the issue of immigration with the issue of crime. The two do not go hand in hand. The vast majority of immigrants to this country do not come here to form criminal gangs or commit crimes of any sort. Just as the vast majority of emigrants do not emigrate for the same reason. It would lead to a more sensible discussion about the issue of immigration to keep the two issues completely separate. Nobody in favour of immigration is in favour of those immigrants commiting crimes.

my respectful regards

Jen

But you are the one who is trying to confuse issues here. You implied in a post about immigration that immigrants coming to this country are on a par with emigrants from this country going to Spain to retire.

What I pointed out is whereas many immigrants come here for less than altruistic reasons, the overwhelming majority of emigrants just want to live a peaceful life in retirement without being a burden on the country that now hosts them.

Unless you accept that people in this country are getting fed up with all these imported criminals, you will never understand why so many people are against all immigration – which I have already stated would be a shame.

We must ensure that people coming from abroad to live here do so for the right reasons – that is to be a benefit to our society, but when I see rabid hate mongers living off benefits, burning poppies and spewing forth their hatred and bile I have to ask myself “Why do we tolerate this outrageous abuse of our hospitality?”

You say that no-one is in favour of certain immigrants committing crimes – well why don’t we just get rid of them then which would stop them instead of allowing them to stay and commit more crimes? And I would like you to answer that.

[babybird67]

But you are the one who is trying to confuse issues here. You implied in a post about immigration that immigrants coming to this country are on a par with emigrants from this country going to Spain to retire.

An emigrant is an immigrant - you just need to see which boundary they are crossing to make the definition. Artificial, arbitrary geographical boundaries, in my opinion.

What I pointed out is whereas many immigrants come here for less than altruistic reasons, the overwhelming majority of emigrants just want to live a peaceful life in retirement without being a burden on the country that now hosts them.

The overwhelming majority of immigrants to this country just want to live a peaceful life also.

Unless you accept that people in this country are getting fed up with all these imported criminals, you will never understand why so many people are against all immigration – which I have already stated would be a shame.

My emphasis. As I said, Bob, I'm not discussing criminals on this thread, but immigration. I would suggest that the victim of a crime wants the perpetrator punished and doesn't give two hoots where that perpetrator was born or raised.

We must ensure that people coming from abroad to live here do so for the right reasons – that is to be a benefit to our society, but when I see rabid hate mongers living off benefits, burning poppies and spewing forth their hatred and bile I have to ask myself “Why do we tolerate this outrageous abuse of our hospitality?”

I agree but these people are exceptions, not the rule.

You say that no-one is in favour of certain immigrants committing crimes – well why don’t we just get rid of them then which would stop them instead of allowing them to stay and commit more crimes? And I would like you to answer that.

Criminals should be dealt with by the criminal justice system. If part of that is deporting them, then I am not against that, if they have committed a crime for which deportation could be the punishment. If they can't be deported, then they should be imprisoned, but remember the purpose of imprisonment is not merely punishment but also rehabilitation, and everyone should have the chance to redeem themselves after doing something wrong. Crime and the national identity of those who commit it shouldn't be the issue. People who break the law should be punished according to the law. We have enough home-grown criminals to be worried about. It's not just immigrants who commit crimes in this country.

Jen

[Limehouse]

I wondered how long it would take for this hoary old chestnut to be dredged up yet again! A few facts, people who retire to Spain do not go begging, they do not run drugs rings, they do not traffic in human beings, they do not form organised crime gangs, they do not commit rape, murder, assault and robbery on a daily basis and they do not perform terrorist acts. They do not lie, cheat and steal from their hosts and defraud the host countries of millions of pounds.

What they do though is bring wealth, jobs and trade to the area they settle in.

According to police sources seven of the top ten most dangerous gangs in Britain are now run by immigrants - that is people who have been in this country for less than 20 years.

I think you will find that quite a number of our more undesirable criminals ended up in Spain and South America. Ever heard of the Costa Del Crime?

Your post and its tone implies that all immigrants are a drain on our resources and are little more than bandits. It is true that there are criminal elements and scroungers among SOME of the immigrants who come to our shores. However they are outnumbered by our own home-grown undesirables who do all the things you describe above.

Almost all immigrants contribute positively to our wealth and our culture. Our health service would certainly be in trouble without immigrant workers and where I live - the crops would rot in the fields before most locals would earn a crust picking and packing them.

[babybird67]

I think you will find that quite a number of our more undesirable criminals ended up in Spain and South America. Ever heard of the Costa Del Crime?

Good point Julie! Where did Ronnie Biggs end up? I'm sure wherever he went the indiginous population thought him an undesirable!

Jen

[Errata]

Being from the US, and having very different immigration issues here, I cannot and do not wish to speak on the subject as if it was the same problem everywhere.

However, I think there is one similar struggle that the US and Britain share. Both countries in the past have botched it. Badly. During periods of isolationism, both countries turned people away who desperately needed a safe place to go. For example: during the rise of the Third Reich, and after the end of the war, there were boatloads of Jews who were sent back, or sent onward. Some of these people spent [B]years[B] on boats. No Western country wanted these people. And a great many of them died because of that. There was a similar situation with Russians during the Terror under Stalin. The US was the only country who would take Ethiopian Jews after they were thrown out of their country, and when the Yemeni Jews were forced out, the US and Britain lent aircraft to the Israelis, who were the only ones who would take them, despite the fact they could not easily support the population.

Now if it seems that I concentrate on the persecution of the Jews, it is only because I learned all of this in Sunday school, so I know about it. I am not under any circumstances saying that the Jews are the only ones who get shafted, and that there aren't similar or worse stories about other peoples.

So historically, we have botched it from time to time. We let people die. And we HATE that. The US especially has a reputation for taking "your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free, etc..." We don't want to send people back to die anymore. We've done it, we look back on it with shame. But also clearly we can't take everyone. No country can absorb the populations of the third world desperate to get out.

My two best friends growing up were immigrants here on asylum. One's father had been a minor functionary in the Shah's government in Iran. When the Ayatollah took over, not only did he commit the sin of protesting, he and his family were Persian and not Arab. He was sentenced to death sight unseen. The other was a Hindu from Pakistan. They lost everything when their neighbors decided to set fire to the house in the middle of the night to kill them all. When they went to the police station, they were jailed for a month, and her father beaten until he lost sight in one eye.

These girls grew up to be great women, and should be an absolute pride to this country. Both are politically and socially active. They fight for the rights of the poor, and the unwanted, and the abused, the give money when they cannot give time, they vote in every single election, and quite frankly they are way prouder to be an American than I ever was. Everything I know about being a great American I learned from a Muslim Iranian and a Hindu Pakistani.

But my neighbor is a member of a Mexican drug cartel that sews the faces of children onto soccer balls as a warning to others.

The only way to know if someone is really seeking asylum, and wants a better life in another country is time. We need to see what they do with their lives over time. However, if that was just an excuse to get into the country, time is the last thing we should be giving them.

I don't know what the answer is. It may just be a question of choosing a lesser evil. Do we risk letting innocent people die when we could save them, or do we risk our own population when we could protect them? I want to be an optimist. I want to save people. But don't think for a second that every time I look at my neighbor that I don't wish he hadn't died crossing the border.

[Limehouse]

Errata your posts are an inspiration. Thank you.

[Errata]

Errata your posts are an inspiration. Thank you.

I swear to god it's the medication they gave me after my back surgery a week ago. I'm all.... emotional. Kinda looking forward to getting back to snarky.